The Wyvern 'Tier' System

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Baurus

a pixie mage is impossible now.

HAHAHA This is the funniest thing I've heard in a long, long time!

[Baurus]

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

HAHAHA This is the funniest thing I've heard in a long, long time!

Well although maybe not entirely true. Being a well rounded pixie mage with fw and all the other skills can't be done at level 25. Maybe with say myke***ie's level 32 amount of skill points yes a level 25 pixie mage who can resist everything, mana shield, attack, and still do a lot of damage can't be done.

[Frosten]

Originally Posted by Baurus

And you Dracco. You need to try and get one for Rarkvar. He's an awesome mage player who really deserves them just can't seem to find any since all the other loot was added to LQ's. Rark's been in need since what.... 08? XD

I helped get him an omni and he blew it up, ungrateful!

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Baurus

Well although maybe not entirely true. Being a well rounded pixie mage with fw and all the other skills can't be done at level 25. Maybe with say myke***ie's level 32 amount of skill points yes a level 25 pixie mage who can resist everything, mana shield, attack, and still do a lot of damage can't be done.

It can, and is done quite successfully

Some folks just don't do mages well, they are the tank folks.

[Rarkvar]

Originally Posted by Frosten

I helped get him an omni and he blew it up, ungrateful!

Did not blow it up. It was in my inventory, and then it wasn't...
I looked through the text thousands of times trying to see what happened to it but nothing in said anything about it being stolen or dropped or anything. It's a mystery...

[Unknown]

Let's keep the topic here guys.... to make it easyer this post should be a Poll with all the races / guild combinations and people to vote 1 to 5 (honestly i think it would be easier 1 to 10).

Sadly i think halfling conjurer is not going to be well rated because people is unaware of how good they are... I feel they are and will be the only tier 1... and i do know the game pretty well.

But any way... i'm too lazy and my english is not good enough, can some one make the Poll??? that way we get right to the point

Again, we need ALL the races and guild combinations (well.. not paladin naga, as that is not possible).

Thanks

[Kama]

If I can figure out how to add the poll, I'll do it ASAP.

And I think you're right on 1-10 being easier, Unknown.

Edit: Found the option to add a poll, but not sure how well it's going to work. It only supports 10 options, and there's more than 10 combos possible.. so, yeah. *ponders*

[Dracco]

Rark must have ate the ring... seems logical as they are quite delicious. I only took a small bite of mine though, I didn't eat the whole ring.

Determining strength from race/guild combos wouldn't really work as the strength of character is directly related to the skills it has trained and the reaction speed plus strategies used by the person controlling the character. In some cases the internet quality comes into play as well but that is one variable that could be omitted.

Two human mages can have totally different elements+arts trained and therefor cannot be put on the same tier. The same can be said for melee classes but to a lesser extent.

That's why I strongly feel that the tier system couldn't be applied to Wyvern effectively.

[Unknown]

Draco... the tier system depends on what people think is a better or worst race-guild mach for them self... For you i guess Halfling-Mage is a tier 1... and from there you think FOR YOU what is better... My recomendation would be only have 1 tier 1 and one tier 10... in between repeat as much as you like.

Please don't be like: All are tier 1 because i'm a tier 1 player... even as a pixie caveman I rule the word... Come one!.... in you experience you have to had preferences and know that you have a better chance of making a good character been a Monk Naga that making a Rouge Naga. there you have a 2 and a 9 (for me at least it is like that).

[Dracco]

The tier system appears to be more than that as it appears that the DM is supposed to alter gameplay to accomodate some lower tiers to make sure they are benificial to their party. It didn't seem like it was a system just to choose what combo is best for certain players.

I never said that all combinations are tier 1 because I can make them that way and I thought that was clear in previous posts when I stated what tier I thought ranger conjurers should be in. I have played 3 different races as a ranger conjurer. I know their potential and abilities. But I stuck them as a tier 2. If I had the mentality that "I'm the best ever and every character I play is a tier 1" I would never have said they seem to be a tier 2. I was just stating facts about cookie cutter mage builds vs what rangers can do but you took offense to it. I didn't mean to offend you but was stating opinions based on previously mentioned outdated playing styles.

[Kama]

Originally Posted by dracco

The tier system appears to be more than that as it appears that the DM is supposed to alter gameplay to accomodate some lower tiers to make sure they are benificial to their party. It didn't seem like it was a system just to choose what combo is best for certain players.

The tier system is definitely valuable to DMs, since it gives a 'basic' idea of the power level the PCs are in their campaign, allowing them to make sure everyone has fun and contributes. It's also extremely valuable for players though, as it serves as a sort of 'knowing what you're in for'.

Originally Posted by Dracco

Determining strength from race/guild combos wouldn't really work as the strength of character is directly related to the skills it has trained and the reaction speed plus strategies used by the person controlling the character. In some cases the internet quality comes into play as well but that is one variable that could be omitted.

Two human mages can have totally different elements+arts trained and therefor cannot be put on the same tier. The same can be said for melee classes but to a lesser extent.

That's why I strongly feel that the tier system couldn't be applied to Wyvern effectively.

I definitely see where you're coming from. But at the same time, the system as used in D&D has the same obstacles. Two wizards could have completely different spells known, just as in Wyvern. And choices on the end of the player are going to play into effectiveness, no doubt.

I think the system makes up for that by being more general in nature. It's meant more as an overview. A Tier 1 class played by a brand new player isn't going to be as much of a game-breaker (and Tier 1s can definitely 'break the game' in D&D), if at all, as someone with more experience under their belt.

I'm not saying translating (I almost typed make.trans there *Closes the terminal slowly* >.>) the system to Wyvern isn't without obstacles, but it's very much doable, in my opinion.

[jezrald]

I think the different guilds (and races, to some extent) should probably be described in terms of how well they do in a number of different areas, and how much this changes when working as part of a group:

• PK
• "PvE", for lack of a better term
• Questing
• LQ bosses
• RDing
• Generally making money (including perhaps specialized things like tanning, smithying, dolls, etc)

Also, perhaps, how well they perform against certain types of monsters: highly mobile monsters like pests, heavy spellcasting monsters like beholders or skulls, durable monsters like diamond golems, etc.

One of the key things to remember is that tiers assume more or less "standard" levels of skill in building characters and playing them (as kama and others have mentioned). So it's less about how well one specific character might do, and more about how the average reasonably skilled player would do with the guild and race (at lower levels, assume the player in question hasn't necessarily even HoFed yet).

[Unknown]

Jez I agree. Please some one could work on the poll?

I think a well established tier system could be a great help of antibalancing the game (as a perfectly balanced game can turn boring :S). If everyone knows that a Naga rogue is Tier 10 and a halfling mage is tier 1 (just examples... let's see how it goes) i think more experienced players will move forward to have alts with the challenging combos just to prove they can make it into the top player list with it (or at least i know i'll).

In fact i think having a column in the top player list that is called TIER could be a nice to have add... Again, is not the same make it all the way to the top with a tier 1 as it is with a tier 10... (just an idea...). What define what group you fall into shouldn't be your current status (other way hofers could just change guilds and say "OH, look how good I'm") but instead what you have spent more time as (so we need a guild timing tracking system).

Anyway non of my ideas have ever been taken in consideration, and provably if we do this poll what could happen is that the TIER 1 get nerfed in order to keep the game balanced (baaah... borring...)

[Harbringer Of Good Stuff]

Originally Posted by Unknown

Jez I agree. Please some one could work on the poll?

I think a well established tier system could be a great help of antibalancing the game (as a perfectly balanced game can turn boring :S). If everyone knows that a Naga rogue is Tier 10 and a halfling mage is tier 1 (just examples... let's see how it goes) i think more experienced players will move forward to have alts with the challenging combos just to prove they can make it into the top player list with it (or at least i know i'll).

In fact i think having a column in the top player list that is called TIER could be a nice to have add... Again, is not the same make it all the way to the top with a tier 1 as it is with a tier 10... (just an idea...). What define what group you fall into shouldn't be your current status (other way hofers could just change guilds and say "OH, look how good I'm") but instead what you have spent more time as (so we need a guild timing tracking system).

Anyway non of my ideas have ever been taken in consideration, and provably if we do this poll what could happen is that the TIER 1 get nerfed in order to keep the game balanced (baaah... borring...)

that bring in the question.. I am a bit interested in what tier the monks are in.

[Lanterra]

One thing to remember about the D&D tier system is that it focus on where the classes will be at high levels, not wear to start. As for what defines everything- in D&D there are 5 things you can do: Cause damage, take damage, boost the teammates, heal damage, or use skill to interact with the enviroment. If a class either do well or make obsolete 4 or more of these nearly all the time, it's tier one. If a class can do well or make obsolete 3 of them, or 4 of them in, but in a limitd way, it's tier 2, and it continues like that on down, to tier 5 who can't even do one of the very well.

Anyway, as to how to Tier builds into Wyvern, we need to look at the ability to use magic, cause non-magic damage, and take damage mostly I'd say. I'm personally basing my system off of the ability to Solo and contribute to a group.

Tier 1: Can solo without much trouble, life is easier with a group but very rarely need one. Tend to be a star member in any group they are in.

Tier 2: Can solo with care. Need a group in more areas, and perform a vital role in the group.

Tier 3: Can solo with care in some areas. Need a group mostly, but perform a vital role in the group.

Example: A healing mage with summon monster

Tier 4: Cannot solo nearly anywhere, need a group but perform a vital role in the group.

Example: A pure resist mage, or a healing mage without summon monster

Tier 5: Cannot even perform a vital role in the group, but may have some redeemable ability.

Example: A mage with maxed out Lore, Earth, and Spirit, and the enchant spells, or someone with blacksmithing and two weapon skills.

Tier 6: Have no redeemable abilities.

Example: A pixie with Polearms, Zoology, and Incantation


Don't know my wyvern builds well enough to arrange them through Tiers 1-3. I believe the balance in Wyvern was going for Tier 3, with outliers in Tiers 2 and 4, and maybe a few higher level characters dropping back into Tier 5.

[Brionac]

Wyvern tier list:

Tier 1 - Paladin

Nothing else matters.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Brionac

Wyvern tier list:

Tier 1 - Paladin

Nothing else matters.

Basically. It's by far the best guild, they have the best bonuses. Might want to list that archers are last though

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Exile

Basically. It's by far the best guild, they have the best bonuses. Might want to list that archers are last though

I'd say Tier 2 - 4 hybrid for archer, if comparing to Lanterra's ranking. I could solo just about anywhere I wanted, but in team situations I could only serve as extra damage. I mean, I COULD pick locks, but if we had any mage with knock or it was a door a team mate would probably do it faster.

[Brionac]

Archers have good damage, just how they work makes it more difficult to compete.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Brionac

Archers have good damage, just how they work makes it more difficult to compete.

I know they have good damage, but they're not given bonuses to much in the way of utility. Mages can resist and heal at least and warrior classes can tank. Archers have to sit in the back line and shoot, and due to that kind of play and the way xp distribution range worked an archer would sometimes miss the xp they helped to get the group.