Defense for Low HP/High SP Races

[Tudwal]

Since the healing nerf and the changes to mana shield, achieving a method of defense (healing or mana shield) for pixies, elves, halflings, and panthers has been difficult. Acquiring enough skills for a mana shield that lasts a decent amount of time is difficult, especially in guilds (most of them) which impose -5 in spirit, mind, and enchantment.

I've heard the suggestion of mana shield pots. My problem with that is it will be a while before a player is high enough and rich enough to use them on a regular basis. Also a potion only grants partial mana shield. These races need every bit of mana shield they can get. Healing skill and spell heal don't seem to work fast enough when you only have 60 or so hps.

What should these races do?

[themadhobo]

Reroll as a giant. It's always been the easiest response to game changes.

[Tudwal]

That's what I've done (a Dwarf and a Rak). However, there should be a way to play the other races without it being a pain in the neck.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Tudwal

That's what I've done (a Dwarf and a Rak). However, there should be a way to play the other races without it being a pain in the neck.

Mana shield is only a lore 3 spell, its not difficult for mages to get without using mana pots. You only need 1 or 2 mind at the most as a mage since you can recast quite easily and dont need it to last half a day like meleers do with less SP.
The player guild is quite clear that some classes are more difficult to play than others.
And some mages nowadays are unbelievable tanks and doing extremely well, so I would just suggest you do as they did, and experiment and find a way that works for you.

[Trayr]

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

Mana shield is only a lore 3 spell, its not difficult for mages to get without using mana pots. You only need 1 or 2 mind at the most as a mage since you can recast quite easily and dont need it to last half a day like meleers do with less SP.
The player guild is quite clear that some classes are more difficult to play than others.
And some mages nowadays are unbelievable tanks and doing extremely well, so I would just suggest you do as they did, and experiment and find a way that works for you.

I think he was talking about players that aren't mages.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Trayr

I think he was talking about players that aren't mages.

If you pick an unusual build (high SP/Low hp ) and try to make it a meleer then you can expect to have a real challenge, yes.

[Tudwal]

I am indeed talking about non-mages (I dislike using evocations). Prior to the mana shield change, an elf could do well as a paladin or an axeman by simply acquiring 12 spirit instead of 7. Such an elf would not lead the top players list or win every LQ, but could be an easily surviving character.

Now, however, the elf would need a bunch of mind magic as well. I'm not sure of how much, but enough to make it last a decent amount of time. Minus 5 enchantment makes recasting every few minutes not worth it.

I realize the "Playing Spellcasters" page of the player's manual is now more true than in the past. Still, would there be a hybrid method that could work? Maybe mana shield pots plus some spell healing as a pally? Or pots plus healing skill as an axeman or a ranger? Sounds fairly ridiculous even as I type it.

I know another non-mage option is an archer, but archers who only get 3 skill points per level already have hefty amount to cram into their skill set.

My point is not to argue against the change (even if it sounds like I am). I can understand the point of making humans the only race that can guild as (almost) anything, and that only races with human-level HP and up can function well as meleers. I'm just trying to explore the possibilities.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Tudwal

I am indeed talking about non-mages (I dislike using evocations). Prior to the mana shield change, an elf could do well as a paladin or an axeman by simply acquiring 12 spirit instead of 7. Such an elf would not lead the top players list or win every LQ, but could be an easily surviving character.

Now, however, the elf would need a bunch of mind magic as well. I'm not sure of how much, but enough to make it last a decent amount of time. Minus 5 enchantment makes recasting every few minutes not worth it.

I realize the "Playing Spellcasters" page of the player's manual is now more true than in the past. Still, would there be a hybrid method that could work? Maybe mana shield pots plus some spell healing as a pally? Or pots plus healing skill as an axeman or a ranger? Sounds fairly ridiculous even as I type it.

I know another non-mage option is an archer, but archers who only get 3 skill points per level already have hefty amount to cram into their skill set.

My point is not to argue against the change (even if it sounds like I am). I can understand the point of making humans the only race that can guild as (almost) anything, and that only races with human-level HP and up can function well as meleers. I'm just trying to explore the possibilities.

You will see that some of this is mentioned in past news posts, there were a lot of melee builds using spells that they would never use successfully and changes are being made to make it a choice, you want to use those spells and you will lose some of your melee skill points to do so. So the changes like mana shield spell changes are aimed at that goal.
So yeah that's what you are dealing with.
And yes Humans were not necessary for anything and are now more viable because of these changes etc.
It isnt so much that you need a 4 skill point character as you have to make choices/take hits in other areas for those skill points. That's all, its more of a challenge if you try to do it, nothing more.
There are a ton of possibilities, and im sure players will begin using them as you progress and adjust.
You can definitely make hybrids, but hybrids are going to be what they should be, weaker than non-hybrids in some areas of their skill set.
As long as you know that if you split/class you are going to split skill points too, and that you will not be as strong as a pure meleer in melee or a pure mage in magic, you will have absolutely no problem with 3 skill points per level and will do just fine.

[Crier]

Originally Posted by Tudwal

Or pots plus healing skill as an axeman or a ranger? Sounds fairly ridiculous even as I type it.

Why does that strike you was an odd fantasy?

The only problem with that I have with the whole "Certain races should follow certain guilds" is that to me Wyvern was always about trying something new and weird, however things get bad when at level 20 your elf has 141 hp With Constitution girdle, AND guild health bonus, yet can still die in two or three ticks of Medusa poison. And if I complain I get the "unusual race/guild combo, you know it should be hard."

[themadhobo]

I feel the same way Crier. Wyvern to me was always the best because an unusual combination always had potential to succeed, though youd have to get past the problem of dying hundreds of times. I guess the game will have to find a new hook.

[Trayr]

That's what you get for trying to be creative. Wyvern punishes players that try and break the norm. I hope you learn your lesson and just make a frost giant axeman or something.

[Godhand]

Originally Posted by Crier

Why does that strike you was an odd fantasy?

The only problem with that I have with the whole "Certain races should follow certain guilds" is that to me Wyvern was always about trying something new and weird, however things get bad when at level 20 your elf has 141 hp With Constitution girdle, AND guild health bonus, yet can still die in two or three ticks of Medusa poison. And if I complain I get the "unusual race/guild combo, you know it should be hard."

I actually liked Wyvern more back then, when there were no true guilds, which allow people to be what ever they wanted. The addition of guilds actually made races with high hp/mp way to powerful and forces people to follow a certain format. Giants naturally have 300+hp at hof with guilds they can have over 600+hp. Same with pixies and halfing in mages with 500+ mana and using mana shield.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by themadhobo

I feel the same way Crier. Wyvern to me was always the best because an unusual combination always had potential to succeed, though youd have to get past the problem of dying hundreds of times. I guess the game will have to find a new hook.

You can be successful with any combo, the difference is your definition of succeed thats all. You can HoF , you can do very well with any combo, but you won't be as strong as others with different combos.
If everyone could be equally strong for example, we wouldnt need different races/guilds. It's about using diff combos and knowing there are weaknesses to overcome thats all. Some players like the choices.

This entire thread started with a discussion of mana shield. That everyone used it as a super necessary spell and they cant play without it , melee and mages alike, shows that the spell had major balance issues, and thats what was addressed with the changes.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Trayr

That's what you get for trying to be creative. Wyvern punishes players that try and break the norm. I hope you learn your lesson and just make a frost giant axeman or something.

This from one of the people that plays the most unusual skill sets.

[Jacksparow]

You should see Strength's skillset Teshuvah. Talk about unique... or being stupid with a "mage"

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard

You should see Strength's skillset Teshuvah. Talk about unique... or being stupid with a "mage"

LOL those are some of the most fun characters to play.

[Trayr]

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

This from one of the people that plays the most unusual skill sets.

I don't play with unusual skill sets.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Trayr

I don't play with unusual skill sets.

*patpat* sure you don't.

[Trayr]

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

*patpat* sure you don't.

I guess it depends on your definition of unusual. Now let's change the subject, I don't think the original question was answered. What was it again?

Ah yes, what should these players do? ((Low HP/High SP))

[Salkand]

Originally Posted by Trayr

I guess it depends on your definition of unusual. Now let's change the subject, I don't think the original question was answered. What was it again?

Ah yes, what should these players do? ((Low HP/High SP))

The original question was answered. Just not in the way that you assumed it would be.