Spell warm-up time

[Hamel]

I think your all forgetting that if this was implemented then there would be no spam healing, thus making the game 2x harder. And personally i find monsters just hard enough without using perfect skill sets. So I'd have to say that what should in my idea of it happen is, spells would be slightly higher in power and nothing else.

And I forgot to say that i completely agree with kathy on the "wyvern isn't about PK" thing.

[Bullfrogz]

Well people DO belive wyvern is for pk Hamel. Lots of players I know have skillsets devoted to training and pking, and they switch between the two at certain points.
Heck theres some players that are made for the soul purpose of pking. So you really can't ignore the pvp aspect.

[Narhalles]

Wyvern has PK elements in it, but it is more about interacting with other players and the world in general.


and more powerful spells? well I dunno.... how about... *wait for it* ...THUNDERSTORM! yeah you heard me. course now you are all gonna go into a hissy fit over how many mobs are near immune to air. well, use DB on them. but seriously, Thunderstorm is better than DB... try a wand of both on two different beholders. DB loses every time. (well only by one cast usually. DB takes 4-6 Thunderstorm takes 3-5) Heck summon an elemental.... or a golem. there are lots of different ways to make a sucessful mage without falling back on fireball. (which I feel is raher cheap and ruins mages.)

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by Bullfrogz

Well people DO belive wyvern is for pk Hamel. Lots of players I know have skillsets devoted to training and pking, and they switch between the two at certain points.
Heck theres some players that are made for the soul purpose of pking. So you really can't ignore the pvp aspect.

It's not what people believe Wyvern is about. It's what R thinks Wyvern is about.

[themadhobo]

No, it is about what people think wyvern is about. There is no point in going to the trouble of redoing a game for a small fanbase, if all the fans would get tired of it because the creator decided to take the game in a different direction.
I figure, we all like wyvern already anyways, so why bother changing it?

Oh and Narhalles, how on earth could a mage hope to solo an RD relying on a summoned elemental or golem? Those summons are terrible! And on top of that, having an earth/air combo mage... thats just weak. I dont care if thunderstorm could kill a beholder in 3-5 casts, if all of my skill points were stuck in training lore I wouldnt be able to survive the wrath of the beholder anyways! And carrying a thousand wands for casting... just isnt fun. Maybe if I came across a rod I would consider it.

[Contrare]

Actually, the real point is it IS Rhialto's game, to do with as he sees fit. Arguing about what or what might not be a good idea for nerfing something is not productive. There are plenty of ideas floating around on solving various balance issues. These are not up for player debate, as most players would not like the choices.

So instead of pointing out why nerf idea XYZ is bad, why not come up with new ideas? Preferably ones that have nothing to do with nerfing.

It has been said many times, Wyvern is not about PvP. It has that ability, but it is more about PvE. Or better yet, GvE.

Balancing any game is complicated. To complicated to even bother publicly debating the merits of any given change.

Contrare

[Hamel]

Heh, i admit the hole purpose of it was not just for nerfing spamhealing. I think that a spell warm-up time would be pretty neat in a RP sense.
You know, wooliewooliewoolie, BOOM!

And whats GvE? something vs enemy.

And really the main reason I thought of it was because I'm going insane.. *twitch twitch*

[Clubbz]

Originally Posted by Hamel

I think your all forgetting that if this was implemented then there would be no spam healing, thus making the game 2x harder.

Spam healing is a bug in my opinion, especially for any non-mage character.....you shouldn't be able to achieve strong blows with a melee skill and still have decent magical potency.....wether it's one spell or 10 spells(I mean the knowledge of casting the spells). Now I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use spells at all, but if you're a melee character you shouldn't be able to use a "stream" of spells.

[Airwing]

what spam healing is not a bug >.> i don't think thats the only thing that keeps me alive when i fight lol

[Arilou]

Actually spam healing is a bug. For purposes of Wyvern game development, a bug is anything that we did not intend to be in the game when something was coded for said game. The fact that people can spam the healing spell is an oversight that we never would've imagined you people would do. That oversight needs to be corrected and it one day will be (right now game balance isn't on the top of Rhialto's list of things to do). It's the enchant bug all over again - You used to be able to enchant any piece of armor and it would protect your whole body, making high level players walking tanks that were extremely hard to kill. A few months later, Rhialto tweaked the Paladin's guild so that they were encouraged to use the healing spell and players begun to figure out that they could become tanks again by spamming the spell.

[themadhobo]

Well the game and the code belong to him, but the community is all of ours. Anything thats up for discussion between us is fair game. If no players were meant to have a say in balancing the game, then how do you think the wizards ever came to be? We all know that every now and then a player decides they want to do more for the game, so they start working to become a wizard, and so they can modify the game or add to it. Well, if you its truly not a gaming community to which we all take some ownership, then why do we play? Its the human interaction that makes an online game what it is, not the math involved in it.

[Arilou]

Wizards have nothing to do with game balance, themadhobo. We offer our opinions, the same as you do, and since we are more experienced they carry a tiny bit more weight (it also helps that there aren't so many of us rambling away on forums that he never reads). However, there are a lot of wizards who have thought more as a player and so their game balance opinions as useless as...well...*looks around*

Anyway, you're welcome to discuss what you want, but just remember the one who can do something about it does not read what you have to say and we aren't very likely to pass any of this along. I for one, barely even skim most of this game balance threads because it is such a waste of time. See the thing is that Wyvern is meant to be made in one person's vision at it's core. If you like that vision you're welcome to play, if you don't like it or you don't like what it turns out to be as the game gets closer and closer to a finished product there are other games out there for you. Wyvern doesn't owe you anything and Wyvern is not going to change/stay the same for you or even a large group of you. You are simply testers who are helping Rhialto fine tune the game so that it will eventually be able to develop a community based on that previously mentioned finished product. Fortunately, Wyvern also is made in such a way where other people (the wizards) can come in and add their vision around the core (with their maps and so on) so if you don't fixate too deeply on what's under the surface there are a wide array of things for a wide array of gamers. If that's a problem for you, the internet provides you with options in the form of other games made in other people's visions which may be more compatable with yours. I cannot stress that enough as some people come into a game and after a few months of playing they think they own a piece of it because they have "devoted so much of their time." Therefore, if it doesn't develop into what expectations they come up with or if it a part of it changes into something that is no longer appealing to them, they feel betrayed.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by Arilou

Wizards have nothing to do with game balance, themadhobo. We offer our opinions, the same as you do, and since we are more experienced they carry a tiny bit more weight (it also helps that there aren't so many of us rambling away on forums that he never reads). However, there are a lot of wizards who have thought more as a player and so their game balance opinions as useless as...well...*looks around*

Anyway, you're welcome to discuss what you want, but just remember the one who can do something about it does not read what you have to say and we aren't very likely to pass any of this along. I for one, barely even skim most of this game balance threads because it is such a waste of time. See the thing is that Wyvern is meant to be made in one person's vision at it's core. If you like that vision you're welcome to play, if you don't like it or you don't like what it turns out to be as the game gets closer and closer to a finished product there are other games out there for you. Wyvern doesn't owe you anything and Wyvern is not going to change/stay the same for you or even a large group of you. You are simply testers who are helping Rhialto fine tune the game so that it will eventually be able to develop a community based on that previously mentioned finished product. Fortunately, Wyvern also is made in such a way where other people (the wizards) can come in and add their vision around the core (with their maps and so on) so if you don't fixate too deeply on what's under the surface there are a wide array of things for a wide array of gamers. If that's a problem for you, the internet provides you with options in the form of other games made in other people's visions which may be more compatable with yours. I cannot stress that enough as some people come into a game and after a few months of playing they think they own a piece of it because they have "devoted so much of their time." Therefore, if it doesn't develop into what expectations they come up with or if it a part of it changes into something that is no longer appealing to them, they feel betrayed.

*yawn*
You've had to repeat that so many times in the past years you really need to make it a macro or something around here.
Where is my umbrella drink?
*puts feet up*

[themadhobo]

The expansion or reduction of gameplay area has an enormous to do with balance in any game. Maybe Im completely mistaken, but I do believe this is what most of the wizards enjoy doing the most. It is not necessary to toy with spellcasting methods or the way damage is dealt to change balance. If you create a map that one type of player is more effective in than another, you have just changed the balance. Wyvern is not the only game which expands over time, I know you don't work on the hard coded portions of the game - unless youre adding an item in python, but thats different - but you do affect the game balance and possibly in way you did not even realize before.

Betrayal, I think is a bit of a strong word to describe players of a free online rpg. Anyone with a speck of common sense would know better than to have any expectations at all of something they get for free. These discussions by the players about things they would like to see do have the potential to turn into something quite well thought out, but they are frequently discouraged. Perhaps you could add to the topic what you would like in an rpg concerning spell warm-up time. We all know you won't change wyvern to be the way we talk about it, but that by no means says you can't contribute to the conversation if you're here anyways... that and I get a feeling you enjoying rpgs just as much as the rest of us, if not more so why not join in?

[Arilou]

Originally Posted by themadhobo

The expansion or reduction of gameplay area has an enormous to do with balance in any game. Maybe Im completely mistaken, but I do believe this is what most of the wizards enjoy doing the most. It is not necessary to toy with spellcasting methods or the way damage is dealt to change balance. If you create a map that one type of player is more effective in than another, you have just changed the balance. Wyvern is not the only game which expands over time, I know you don't work on the hard coded portions of the game - unless youre adding an item in python, but thats different - but you do affect the game balance and possibly in way you did not even realize before.

Rhialto has put strict rules down for how we are to balance areas. Legolas then taught some of us how to make sure areas are properly balanced and in his absence we now make sure areas follow those rules ourselves. There are times when wizards make overpowered areas and those areas remain in the game for prolonged periods of time, so in that way wizards can effect the balance. However, they are not in control of what the standard is and if they do not fix their areas and keep on making unbalanced maps they are going to get banished. Making a map for one type of player is a completely different matter as that is working within the guidelines. Rhialto expects wizards to do that sort of thing and wants us to use our judgement while making sure those areas do not give too much/too little xp and/or gold...

I was going to go on after that last sentence, but this irreverent as what I previously commented on had nothing to do with saying wizards cannot effect game balance. Instead I was mentioning control over it. You seem to have taken my first line ("Wizards have nothing to do with game balance, themadhobo") out of context and ran with it in a different direction. The whole issue was of who decides how the game should be balanced, nothing more.

Betrayal, I think is a bit of a strong word to describe players of a free online rpg. Anyone with a speck of common sense would know better than to have any expectations at all of something they get for free. These discussions by the players about things they would like to see do have the potential to turn into something quite well thought out, but they are frequently discouraged.

There in lies the problem - Some people don't have common sense. I have seen lots of people throw tantrums over these things. Obviously, you're not as hardcore as them, but you were still reaching with your community/ownership line. In reality you guys are glorified test dummies and the community that you are apart of is just another test of how the desired community will interact when all is said and done. Even listening to your opinions is another part of the test phase as we want to see how a real community would react. Granted, we do appreciate you guys and so we don't want to mistreat you. In fact, we hope some of you will remain with the game when beta is over. However, some of you expect to get more out Wyvern than is possible.

Perhaps you could add to the topic what you would like in an rpg concerning spell warm-up time. We all know you won't change wyvern to be the way we talk about it, but that by no means says you can't contribute to the conversation if you're here anyways... that and I get a feeling you enjoying rpgs just as much as the rest of us, if not more so why not join in?

Yeah, I'm going to pass. It deals with spam healing when I have an opposite and private idea as how to fix it. It also deals with something that I just don't care about. If I don't care about something, I tend to know less about it than you'd think. Remember, I am not a Wyvern player, nor have I ever been so you want to get a wizard with a researched perspective to reply to an idea like that. I deal with game design from the designer's perspective and content. Anything that doesn't help me with those two (like knowing what evocation does - something I realized, by accident, late in my career as it was/is unimportant to my work) would be things I don't bother dealing with.

[Clubbz]

Originally Posted by Arilou

Rhialto has put strict rules down for how we are to balance areas. Legolas then taught some of us how to make sure areas are properly balanced and in his absence we now make sure areas follow those rules ourselves.

I don't suppose there's anyway we could see a list of rules for balancing areas? I just want to be able to see if my areas are close....because any map which I currently am making is based on my experience in the game which makes it difficult to make training areas good for a variety of players(as my only decent level character was a "tank").......and I need to add some monster area's to my towns before submission.....if I'm still here when wyvern comes up......

[Contrare]

Originally Posted by Arilou

... Granted, we do appreciate you guys and so we don't want to mistreat you...

*gasp* I though I was suppose to mistreat players. I appreciate good players. But I am sure someone will point out that I took the above quote out of context. See how easy it is to only see what you wish to see?

The idea of a warm-up time agrees with how I would envision magic working, but A) this may not be how magic works in Wyvern and B) the purpose of the idea should not be to "balance" the game. Any feature or bug can be abused and cause an inbalance...including taking a quote out of context.

Originally Posted by Teshuvah

Where is my umbrella drink?

Opps! Will you look at the time? It's time to make the umbrella drinks.

Contrare

[themadhobo]

Well, I'm not really sure if anyone will come up with an idea that someone can't figure out how to abuse. I think in the end of designing any game, the truest balance is in making abuseable bugs into "features" instead of a bugs. Spam healing in a game can be fun, so can casting fireballs so fast that the sprites all merge under one spot, but I guess nobody can say if this is the game that will choose to use that as a feature not offered in many other games. I think the desires one has in a roleplaying game are based 1) on the very first roleplaying game one ever enjoyed and 2) being able to create something completely opposite of what you are in real life.

[Hamel]

My, my, quite a pile of ideas and idea destroying this has come to be. I have to say i regret posting this idea, like all others, I wonder why we even have a suggestions sub forum, if all the ideas we ever think up are all simply posted down by the wizards/players and they say that they/R have better things to put in than this or, they have a better way of dealing with this particular thing. Or they simply think its a dumb idea. =P Its quite amusing.

But really though go on! Don't let me stop you.
Oh, I'm being a wet blanket again aren't I? Oh dear.

[Narhalles]

slightly on the damp side my mad littel dwarf... (has Armok gotton to your brain?? )