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Suggestions Post any suggestions for new Wyvern content here that is too complicated to explain in the idea log or that you want to first get feedback on from other players.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 04-05-2012, 03:50 PM
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Morwen Morwen is offline
 
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Default Earth Element - Wider Range of Spells?

Foreword

After playing around with magics on Helen back when the game was still up and doing some searching around through different files to see how things compared I found earth to be incredibly lacking in the Fire/Water/Earth/Air category. The element lacks any real offense (sandstorm being more of a gimmick) and even its defensive techniques which it is supposedly centered on are lacking and stationary.

Spell List Comparisons
FIRE
  • Berserk
  • Create Lava
  • Dragon Breath
  • Fireball
  • Firebolt
  • Firefrost
  • Firespray
  • Flame Wall
  • Flame Blade
  • Flame Shield
  • Prismatic Shield
  • Resist Fire
  • Summon Fire Elemental

The Element of fire is centered mainly upon the ability to deal damage to an enemy. It has evocation spells, conjuration spells, and enchantment spells.

WATER
  • Acid Dart
  • Blizzard
  • Create Pool
  • Firefrost
  • Frost Blade
  • Frost Ward
  • Frost Wave
  • Icestorm
  • Prismatic Shield
  • Resist Cold
  • Summon Water Elemental
  • Water Breathing
  • Water Walk

Compilation of utility spells and damage dealing spells. Has evocation spells, enchantment spells, and conjuration spells.

AIR
  • Darksight
  • Dispel Paralysis
  • Dispel Slow
  • Fly
  • Invisibility
  • Join Player
  • Lightning Bolt
  • Lightning Shield
  • Magic Map
  • Magic Whip
  • Prismatic Shield
  • Resist Shock
  • Sandstorm
  • See Invisible
  • Shrink Armor
  • Speed
  • Static Blade
  • Summon Air Elemental
  • Thunder Bolt
  • Thunderstorm
  • Xray

Arguably the most useful element, provides powerful utility spells and incredible damage outpout. If a mage were to be "support", air would be a better choice than earth. Contains evocation spells, enchantment spells, and conjuration spells.

EARTH
  • Create Earth Wall
  • Destroy Armor
  • Destroy Object
  • Dig
  • Enchant Armor
  • Enchant Weapon
  • Enlarge Armor
  • Excavation
  • Forestry
  • Fortress
  • Imprison
  • Magic Mine
  • Petrify
  • Repair
  • Resist Petrify
  • Sandstorm
  • Satiety
  • Slow
  • Stonewind [Requires 17 Lore!]
  • Strength
  • Summon Earth Elemental
  • Summon Golem

Very low to nonexistent damage output and limited utility. Contains evocation, conjuration, and enchantment.

The Issue?

Due to its limited uses in group combat and soloing the earth element is something only eccentric enchanters use on a regular basis. Two of its spells are almost entirely unused due to the fact that they destroy the caster's equipment. There are even two spells focused entirely on removing dirt walls!

As a defensive element the earth element lacks a surprising amount of defense. What an earth mage is given are a road block (earth wall) and "pray to god I'm not already surrounded get out of jail free card" (fortress), which dissipates when you cast another spell.

Its spell list is large, yes. But how many of the spells see any regular use? And of these spells how many are replaced by scrolls, potion or potion of resist usage instead?


Proposition

1. Lower the lore cost of earth wall. As one of the basic defensive spells an earth mage is given to either block of a route to allow escape or to funnel enemies, a mana cost of 30 per wall can be a little extreme. Especially considering they've likely invested in other arts.

2. Remove Destroy (Armor, Object). It may be a cheap way to remove cursed items you've accidentally worn, but that's only if the items are complete junk. Instead, replace it with low-end earth evocation spells.

3. Excavation. Remove the Death element involved, and possibly remove the spell entirely.

4. Allow Satiety to be cast on team members. (I can't remember if this was ever changed. I remember it being self cast only.)

5. Implementation of a new Conjuration of Earth, called Armor of Stone or some such. Consumes a stone and provides a summoned piece of body armor that greatly increases the wearer's resistance to physical attacks. Lore level 4 or 5.

6. Decrease the lore requirement of Stonewind. Maybe 13 or so, like Thunderstorm.

7. Implementation of new Evocation Earth spells. Possibly one like Acid Dart/Magic Dart, Lore Level 3, that sends out a boulder that deals physical smashing damage. And perhaps a Lore 4 cone spell 1/3 the length of spells like firespray and icestorm that also deals physical smashing damage.
  #2  
Old 04-05-2012, 04:20 PM
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Have you ever had a mage?
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  #3  
Old 04-05-2012, 04:56 PM
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Dracco Dracco is offline
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I actually plan on making an earth mage when the game is back up to properly test it's abilities but I will have to get creative in ways to deal damage. I was a fire/water/air mage and, by far, air magic is the most powerful. I would like to see some sort of self-only (cannot cast on others) defensive spell for earth magic but I think the lack of combat based earth mages in the past has limited the input of gameplay from earth magic users. From my current standpoint (being a mage but not an earth mage) I feel earth magic does need some tweaks.
  #4  
Old 04-05-2012, 05:06 PM
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Just keep in mind when giving suggestions for earth magic things that earth magic spells were meant to be the support/extras and not meant to be the damage/offense element.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
As a defensive element the earth element lacks a surprising amount of defense.
What?......

Earth golems are some of the strongest in the game = Defense

Earth wall, fortress, imprison, magic mine, slow = defense

Seems that there are as many, if not more defense spells in earth than any other element.

Maybe you've just never used earth magic much.

Your propositions really don't make a lot of sense. but just a few notes...

Armor of stone spell = fortress

Stonewind is instant death, thunderstorm isnt.. Hence the difference in lore.

And there is no need for earth spells that do damage, they've been suggested many many times. There are 3 other elements that do that. Earth is a support element.
  #5  
Old 04-05-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trayr View Post
Have you ever had a mage?
It's in the foreword. My mage is Helen. I got her to level 21 before the game went down. Air/Water.

EDIT:

@Teshuvah: So never any kind of quick solo game play, if you invest in earth as your main element.

And what's your opinion on the destroy (item) spells?

Last edited by Morwen : 04-05-2012 at 05:29 PM.
  #6  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:24 PM
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Teshuvah Teshuvah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
It's in the foreword. My mage is Helen. I got her to level 21 before the game went down. Air/Water.

EDIT:

@Teshuvah: So never any kind of quick solo game play, if you invest in earth as your main element.

And what's your opinion on the destroy (item) spells?
Not all elements are meant for quick solo game play, so no.

Earth was created for the purpose of the support spells, not as "another damage element". No use duplicating stuff just in another element, that's already done in fire/water too much.

Although I have seen some amazing success with boosted up summons just as the game went down. But that isn't quick (although it's quicker than it was) and does take a lot of planning and thought. The "quick! KILL IT!" type need to stick with the easier elements most likely.
I saw amazing things done with boosted up elementals in front of an archer, too
Sandstorm was improved, but it is just a low level spell and meant to stay that way.
But it definitely can be done if you want it bad enough.

Destroy item spells are actually vital, and I can't say anymore without giving out QI and then I'd have to banish us both and then unbanish myself, and.. well.. the games down and I'll forget by the time it comes up
  #7  
Old 04-06-2012, 12:56 PM
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Okay, so damage output out of the question, still some questions.

Why is death involved in excavation? Or even the the destroy spells for that matter? Does it influence how quickly the earth blocks are destroyed or how the object is destroyed?

Is satiety only self-cast like I remember? Being able to cast it on others would be much more helpful in a support role.

Is repair castable on objects outside your inventory? For example some dwarf's axe is close to breaking and leaving the area would be too time consuming. If the dwarf dropped it would the earth mage be able to repair it?

I still think a lore drop in earth wall would be helpful.

I also still think that the "Armor of Stone" idea would be helpful, even if it's just self-cast, to provide a mobile defense. Fortress is stationary and, while impenetrable, keeps you from offering further support while inside it.
  #8  
Old 04-06-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
Okay, so damage output out of the question, still some questions.

Why is death involved in excavation? Or even the the destroy spells for that matter? Does it influence how quickly the earth blocks are destroyed or how the object is destroyed?

Is satiety only self-cast like I remember? Being able to cast it on others would be much more helpful in a support role.

Is repair castable on objects outside your inventory? For example some dwarf's axe is close to breaking and leaving the area would be too time consuming. If the dwarf dropped it would the earth mage be able to repair it?

I still think a lore drop in earth wall would be helpful.

I also still think that the "Armor of Stone" idea would be helpful, even if it's just self-cast, to provide a mobile defense. Fortress is stationary and, while impenetrable, keeps you from offering further support while inside it.
Death and earth are often teamed up as related elements. What death does to the spell is something you'll have to discover yourself.

I *believe* satiety on others and repair cast on items on the ground others was discussed, unsure whether satiety was implemented or not or if there were other issues. As for repair, I believe there were some issues with an item not being seen as belonging to a group member. Spells only see the list of names in the group, now huge lists of inventory items.

Armor of stone exists, as I said. it's called fortress. It stops all damage so of course it's limitation is that you can't cast spells etc while immune. Immunity is kind of a big deal.

You want better armor, buy better armor there is no logical reason an earth spell would improve physical/magical/destructable armor.

No reason earth wall should be less lore that I can see. It's not high lore now. And it's not a low level spell for new players to use, that would be too easy/cheap. There are very distinct issues with spells that have lore too low making them too powerful. Nevermind the issue of level 1s screaming because they cant get out after their little dagger is destroyed trying to break the wall they "accidently" created etc.. Yeah... no
  #9  
Old 04-06-2012, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Death and earth are often teamed up as related elements. What death does to the spell is something you'll have to discover yourself.
Step one on my return: make a character that uses Earth and Death! It's gotta work out better than my staff-wielding healer.

Quote:
I *believe* satiety on others and repair cast on items on the ground others was discussed, unsure whether satiety was implemented or not or if there were other issues. As for repair, I believe there were some issues with an item not being seen as belonging to a group member. Spells only see the list of names in the group, now huge lists of inventory items.
So it's possible these will be tweaked in the future?

Quote:
Armor of stone exists, as I said. it's called fortress. It stops all damage so of course it's limitation is that you can't cast spells etc while immune. Immunity is kind of a big deal.

You want better armor, buy better armor there is no logical reason an earth spell would improve physical/magical/destructable armor.
But... But... *prattles on endlessly in my brain rather than trying to push this any further*

Quote:
No reason earth wall should be less lore that I can see. It's not high lore now. And it's not a low level spell for new players to use, that would be too easy/cheap. There are very distinct issues with spells that have lore too low making them too powerful. Nevermind the issue of level 1s screaming because they cant get out after their little dagger is destroyed trying to break the wall they "accidently" created etc.. Yeah... no
That sounds fun.
  #10  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen View Post
Step one on my return: make a character that uses Earth and Death! It's gotta work out better than my staff-wielding healer.



So it's possible these will be tweaked in the future?



But... But... *prattles on endlessly in my brain rather than trying to push this any further*



That sounds fun.

Satiety maybe, Repair probably not, since you can repair with scrolls, blacksmith etc and leaving an RD to do things is part of the downfall of RDs.
You can use other spells to leave and return to your group.

It's all fun and games until someone gets sick of listening to new players cry....
  #11  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:11 PM
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Why don't they add a damaging earth spell? Use Earthquake? Grand Summoner Zeik likes that spell. I'm sure our wyvern mages would to. And it would definitely help mages have fun in PK. I know i'd think it was pretty cool to see.

I mean I think it's a good idea seeing as (PK for instance) people can resist themselves, and some monsters like Arch Dracolichs resist almost everything. What if one teleports next to you? Defend yourself and retreat? Seems like a good idea to me.

But when I mentioned Grand Summoner Zeik.... Don't make it THAT powerful. I mean 1-hitting isn't fun. But I think it's a good idea, and I certainly don't see why it wouldn't be a good addition. If there is any kind of concern I failed to address please let me know.
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Last edited by hofod : 04-06-2012 at 04:15 PM.
  #12  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Stonewind is instant death, thunderstorm isnt.. Hence the difference in lore.
Well that may be the case but look at Death Ray. That's instant kill too, and it's 14 lore. And stonewind requires like 3 or 4 reagents to cast it to D rays 1 (although probably cheaper than D rays reagent).
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  #13  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofod View Post
Well that may be the case but look at Death Ray. That's instant kill too, and it's 14 lore. And stonewind requires like 3 or 4 reagents to cast it to D rays 1 (although probably cheaper than D rays reagent).
I think the reasoning is Dray isn't cone.
  #14  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofod View Post
Why don't they add a damaging earth spell? Use Earthquake? Grand Summoner Zeik likes that spell. I'm sure our wyvern mages would to. And it would definitely help mages have fun in PK. I know i'd think it was pretty cool to see.

I mean I think it's a good idea seeing as (PK for instance) people can resist themselves, and some monsters like Arch Dracolichs resist almost everything. What if one teleports next to you? Defend yourself and retreat? Seems like a good idea to me.

But when I mentioned Grand Summoner Zeik.... Don't make it THAT powerful. I mean 1-hitting isn't fun. But I think it's a good idea, and I certainly don't see why it wouldn't be a good addition. If there is any kind of concern I failed to address please let me know.
Already answered why there aren't damaging earth spells.....


Monster "only" spells... are for monsters only per R.
  #15  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Satiety maybe, Repair probably not, since you can repair with scrolls, blacksmith etc and leaving an RD to do things is part of the downfall of RDs.
You can use other spells to leave and return to your group.

It's all fun and games until someone gets sick of listening to new players cry....
You can cast repair on an item if it is on the ground, regardless of who owns it.
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  #16  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:38 PM
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Sorry, I meant to type resist mage, not just mage. If the game comes back up you should try out making one. You will see that earth is actually quite a bit more helpful than it seems.
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  #17  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosten View Post
You can cast repair on an item if it is on the ground, regardless of who owns it.
Morwen will be happy!
  #18  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Morwen will be happy!
I am happy. ^_^

Now all we need is a confirmation that satiety casts on others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trayr View Post
Sorry, I meant to type resist mage, not just mage. If the game comes back up you should try out making one. You will see that earth is actually quite a bit more helpful than it seems.
I don't know if I have the patience to pull off a resist mage. D:

Last edited by Morwen : 04-06-2012 at 06:38 PM.
  #19  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:54 PM
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I plan on making a Fire/Earth mage when the game is back up. I already had one in the works when I last played. If you'd like any tips, Morwen, on how to make an effective Earth/Death mage feel free to PM me, I know lots of tricks for 'em.
  #20  
Old 04-09-2012, 02:00 PM
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My resist mage is coming out nicely, I will have to amp up his abilities for sure. Earth can be useful, with the slow spell?

I remember in BRMA, not being able to log out at one point, thanks to the myriad of spells that make me loss control of my character...

Always use resists kids!

EDIT: Earthquake would be a nice spell to have for Earth Mages
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Last edited by Harbringer Of Good Stuff : 04-10-2012 at 06:57 PM.
 


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