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Suggestions Post any suggestions for new Wyvern content here that is too complicated to explain in the idea log or that you want to first get feedback on from other players. |
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#61
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By the way, can anyone provide a link to the topic tesh was referring to? Would be nice to know what was the rest of Rhialto's vision. |
#62
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Yes, that is surely a good think to know. It makes one reconsider amulet use alltogether.
__________________
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength! |
#63
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Here is the game balance page, I posted it directly to the forum to make it easier to find.
http://www.wyvernrpg.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2361 |
#64
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It appears I got ahead of myself, I should have clarified what part of the balance you were even talking about before going into whether or not it makes any sense. Alright, I will give you the benefit of doubt and properly discuss and reinterpret what Rhialto said in the page you have linked me to. From the context, you are telling me that Rhialto mentioned in that page something along the lines of "you should have a chance of dying against everything". Therefore let us slowly look through the page for anything that matches your description. If I run into that particular line but interpret it in the wrong way, then feel free to point it out for me. And if it happens to not exist in the page then that is that. I am not doubting that you do not know Rhialto's vision of balance after working on Wyvern for all this time, after all I am sure that you had much more conversations with him than most of the people on Wyvern. However, telling me to read that page again is not giving me an answer. So we will see what went wrong in this conversation. Let us begin, this may end up being fairly long but ah well. I will list quotes from that page one by one, taking every single quote that I feel is even slightly relevant to what you have said. Quote:
Meanwhile the second way is a bit of a push so that it leads to what you are saying but it can also mean that you should not have much of an easier time killing a goblin/kobold etc in comparison to before no matter what level you are. But even then, there is one problem with this. Your post used Russian roulette as an analogy, as well as the fact that we are currently talking about deaths by luck and not skill. This quote, if it was referring to the latter part, it would clearly be talking about difficulty to kill and less about dying by pure luck. If you died to a goblin at level 1, you do not die to it because luck said so, it's because of your carelessness that led to the death. But taking what you said in context, you would be saying that we can die at any given moment against every monster in Wyvern just because Rhialto said so. Quote:
However always having a risk of death against everything hardly has anything to do with paying attention assuming you are not a low level. In the case of death ray, for melees, it does not matter what kind of superhuman reflexes you have when the death ray hits you at point blank range. Therefore I do not think this part of the balance has anything to do with what you have said. Quote:
However that is besides the point, we can interpret it in the way that death ray is a measure taken so that people cannot kill everything alone. This does not make sense in this case, because mages and archers kill them perfectly fine, it is even recommended for a melee to start hurling or maging those monsters to death. Not to mention, it is not that melees *cannot* kill the monsters in question, it is that they expose themselves to significant risk and that deters melees from doing their job and fighting them. For this reason, I exclude this part from having anything to do with what you have said. Quote:
But in terms of actual difficulty, it's as simple as walking up and smashing it once. Not to mention you can also just hurl a rock, shoot an arrow or cast a spell to kill it perfectly safe. Once again, luck does not equal to difficulty. Quote:
I stated this a bit above but, this already somewhat applies to mages and archers. If you took them and walked up to a monster with decent strength, like a ghast or whatever and then left the computer, you would obviously come back dead. However it does not always apply to melees because they would usually automatically retaliate to attacks. But yet again, this has absolutely nothing to do with having a chance to die against every monster through luck. If you die to something like this, it is the result of your actions. And that ends all of the quotes that I could find related to this subject. Alright, I have finished my side of the things, perhaps there are some minor areas I overlooked but the most obvious points have been stated here. Now it is your turn to answer and explain. |
#65
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This isn't up to your interpretation or debate, this is what he wants, period. Why you wasted your time debating it is beyond me. Having worked with and discussed this with him for years gives us some insight.
You're need to hear yourself talk and think you know more about the game and how he wants it run than he does is comical. *Shakes head* but just to clarify for other folks who mentioned things. This is what I mean about "you should always have a chance of dying to a goblin" This: You should never be able to enter combat and then walk away from your keyboard. If you fall asleep, the kobolds should gnaw your face off. (at the moment with auto attacking back this doesn't happen but this is the goal, if you arent careful you can die.) Or this: There should always be monsters that you can't kill. If you can kill the most powerful monsters in the game, then the balance is wrong. (this is encouraging groups) Death ray is just *one* of the ways we are doing this, there are more coming as I said and as are listed in Rhialtos balance note. You should and will always have a chance to die and not be able to be immune. You don't have to like it, but this is what we are going for. Rhialto "Answered and explained" just fine. No one class has more of a risk to die to death ray than another, they just have to think of other ways to handle it. (As Arilou said 10 times) |
#66
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Now, if you were to read my post, the entire reason I even began the interpretation is because you were constantly referring me to the notes despite them not answering anything. So at last we have grasped where exactly you are talking about. Now to talk about them... Quote:
Alright, sure, there should be plenty of ways to do that like adding a minimum damage but why exactly would you choose to give a select few monsters death ray and even hope all monsters could do it instead? That's about as rational as shooting a missile to kill a rat. Not to mention as I stated, death ray has nothing to do with walking away from your keyboard. Even if you were paying attention you would die anyway. If that was not the case, then there would not be as much deaths to death ray. Quote:
It's good to know that there will be different ways in the future to encourage grouping as well. However, where exactly is the need to let lives depend on luck? It is not that we cannot kill them, it is that we do not want to risk our lives doing so because the risk versus reward is not worth it. So alright, we do not want to die therefore we will group. Is it because the monster is powerful? No. Even if it's a death rat that can die in one hit or anything along those lines, melees would likely much prefer a mage or archer to kill it rather than themselves. But wait, let us think again. If it is the purpose of wizards to make melees find another way to kill them, as in, stand away and hurl or gasp, cast magic. And then when you think about it for more than a few seconds, you will realize that many of the "high tier" monsters have death ray. So then what? Against high tier monsters melees are supposed to:
Haven't melees pulled the short end of the stick here in that case? We are given the choice of having a chance to die by luck or to not fight them/gear yourself to fight in something irrelevant to where you put your skill points in. If it were for one or two monsters it does not matter, but we are talking about many of the higher tier monsters and even some low level monsters have death ray. And archer/mages? I believe it should be fairly obvious that they can hide out of view or at the very least, they have the time to move away before the death ray hits. They can kill all of the high tier monsters at full power and just about every other monster as well. Death ray encourages melees to group. But for archers/mages, they could kill those monsters just fine alone because the melee is sitting out the battle entirely. Quote:
And you are saying that supposedly, a mage or archer carries the same risk to die to death ray as a melee. When mages and archers do not even need to be able to see the monster in order to kill. Even if a death ray went their way, they are given the time to dodge. Arilou mentioned this in his post as well: Quote:
From the very beginning I was arguing the fact that the method being used to achieve the objective is not a very reasonable one. When you think of a risk of dying, it is usually from taking damage or carelessness. Not from a dice roll. That is, of course, when actually meleeing and not changing your build to become a second rate archer/mage. Hurl is a nice idea once more ammunition gets implemented, but rod is silly with our negatives. |
#67
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If anyone has any other questions about game balance that weren't already addressed repeatedly feel free to start another thread as this one has gotten off topic. Everything else here has been addressed many times.
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