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  #1  
Old 11-24-2009, 03:06 AM
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Default So are the Wizards gonna admit it?

Hi there, I used to play Wyvern back in the good old days, might remember me as King of Dragons on the old forums.

I like to stop by and check on Wyvern every now and again, see how things go.

Well, I quit for the longest time. And when I did come back, it was when things were actually getting done, starting with the spam heal nerf.

Since then, the playerbase has spiraled down and down into the single digit range every time I see who is online.

It's a little sad, isn't it? I created a new character and was seeing what's new, and also trying to level. If that many dedicated players moved on for whatever reason, isn't time to think perhaps they tinkered with the game too much?

I mean, Wyvern has always had a step learning curve, between macros and the puzzle quests, but now it is just downright ridiculous. I commend those who have reached Level 25 since the spam heal nerf and the game changes made since that point, I couldn't even imagine spending that much time.

Bottom line, Wyvern is extremely difficult gameplay wise. There is a reason noone plays anymore. You have a great game style and very possible to restore the playerbase, but you will have to make things easier for newcomers and vets alike.
  #2  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:01 AM
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I disagree, Ok I haven't made a new low level player in ages so I can't give an opinion based on that.

The reason I don't play wyvern anymore is simply because I've moved on. I still like to come on and listen to everyone talk, and talk myself of course. And I think the game is designed that way, for you to move on after a certain point.

Yes the playerbase is at an all time low. But to me it seems like it's because wyvern is in a transitionary stage, and when everything is complete and done, the wizards will advertise (I don't want to use that word but I can't think of anything else to use for it). After the transitionary stage, I believe the playerbase will rise again.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:15 PM
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Making things easier for new players is absolutely on our list. We've discussed this with players before on the forums and asked for their input. We now have many ideas on the subject and will work to implement them before we begin promoting Wyvern again. However, it's not scheduled for right now.

With higher level players, we still have a way to go to balance things. Our goal is to make a game that is both challenging and fun. So far, we've rushed to get a lot of stuff into the game that was on our list for years. Going forward, we will to continue to make tweaks to help players under these new conditions and we will add things as well. Part of the process of getting there is through you guys helping us test things. But, our dramatic changes have caused players to retrain their skills (and buy new things to survive) several times over a short period of time. We knew this would be frustrating and told you all early on that if it was a problem, you were welcome to take a break from Wyvern and come back when we were done. The numbers now are a bit low for our liking, but we are on track and players need to just be patient. They should also be aware that the numbers increase and decrease based on the types of updates we make, so we expect it to go up and down and up and down some more times before this is all over.
  #4  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:41 PM
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I've tried starting over recently but the new hunger system makes the game feel like a real grind. I found that with a new character I was spending my time trying to earn money fast enough to fill up my hunger bar while slowly gaining enough to buy skills. After level 4 it got a tiny bit easier, but at the same time gaining levels starts taking longer so you have to hunt for food more frequently per level. Hunger is a cool idea RP-wise, but having a halfling with an appetite so ravenous that he tends to starve to death while adventuring sucks. The best aspects of old Wyvern involved being able to play continuously for a long period of time without having to return to town or hunt for food and potions.
  #5  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:58 PM
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Food is pretty high on our list - There are more things we need to add/look at/tweak to make the system fully balanced. We're aware that it is especially hard on new players and that is something we want to fix. As a result, we made sure to keep that in mind when making menus, but they were just a first step toward improving the system. For example, down the line, being able to get more food while dungeon crawling is something you'll see.
  #6  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:30 PM
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Food? Honestly I havent had much problem with the new food system, however, I do think it's just a tad bit fast. I've seen no problems affording food, or simply finding it. There's an abundance of food in many places, yes even in the ****ie areas for low levels, I just find the rate at which it drops to be a little fast. I actually laughed a bit at that last sentence, as I played crossfire for a long time, and some of the characters on Crossfire really know what hunger is...but then again, all corpses on Crossfire actually affect your hunger bar.

My only true issue with the new food system is that corpses don't seem to affect your food bar much. I'd like to see some corpses that fill up up quite a bit, and some that cause you to get violently sick and throw up causing your food bar to drop alarmingly fast.
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2009, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clubbz View Post
I'd like to see some corpses that fill up up quite a bit, and some that cause you to get violently sick and throw up causing your food bar to drop alarmingly fast.
Hmm, that's actually a really good idea. We've been brainstorming on how to balance weight's effect on corpses in light of how many you run into during your average grind and that affect hadn't occurred to us. Thanks!
  #8  
Old 11-25-2009, 01:46 AM
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Well, if you guys are still looking for suggestions, here is one:

Makes thing or increase the money earned in ****ie area. 1000 for 1 Skill. Wyvern should be designed around projected character level range, tune them in that range, Level 4s against Adventurers who are Level 4 and have 4 in an offensive skill.

But also make it possible for all levels to be fully trained, by reducing training costs across the board or making more money available in the world.
  #9  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:25 AM
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Actually, Rhialto wants it so that, on average, a level 5 won't have enough money to train all their skills - That's an example he gave when explaining trainers and balance a long time ago. The basic idea is that if the average player has no problem training all their skills, right after getting them, there's a balance issue.

But there's a lot of money available in the starting towns. Between quests, non-combat activities, high valued loot, etc., players who know what they are doing can collect a nice bit of gold for themselves. There's also a couple of opportunities to make use of the services of some cheap trainers at lower levels. Low level areas are actually hugely developed in this department. The problem is that mid level areas are underdeveloped and players like to rush out of the starting towns as soon as possible rather than making the most out of all the things they have to offer.
  #10  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:09 AM
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I'm glad to hear that food is on the list of tweaks in mind. Hopefully you'll post an update for it on the main site so I know when to come back and not die of starvation after taking a break to get a real snack for myself.
  #11  
Old 11-25-2009, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themadhobo View Post
I'm glad to hear that food is on the list of tweaks in mind. Hopefully you'll post an update for it on the main site so I know when to come back and not die of starvation after taking a break to get a real snack for myself.

You dont die from being hungry/starving, never did.
  #12  
Old 11-25-2009, 07:55 AM
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Has any of you played ADOM? Its hunger system is a lot of fun. You can die of starvation, and you do, like all the time, till you learn the game a bit. The corpses fill your stomach quite a bit, but not every monster of the same type you kill drops and edible corpse (you may completely destroy it by some spell/sword/etc, it happens to most of them), so you have to pick them up and carry them around, but they start to rot after some time (as well as other food, only faster). You can still eat them if their status is "starting to rot", but there's a chance (which gradually increase as the food rots) you will either get poisoned and throw up, emptying your stomach again, or catch a deadly sickness, usually causing a slow, painful death to low-level chars. Other monster's corpses (for example bugbears I think) are not edible at all and wil poison you automatically (isn't that implemented in wyvern already?), but eating a corpse of a certain type of poisonous spiders will give you imunity to most types of venom.
There's a skill called food preservation which will increase the time before food starts to rot and increases the chance of getting an edible corpse, but I don't think that would be a good idea for wyvern (plus it would be plagiarism. However, decreasing the chance a monster drops an edible corpse, ability to carry (parts of) corpses, their rotting (already implemented? But might need adjustments) and adding stronger negative and rare positive effects might make the hunger system much better in my opinion. (of course still including the fact that corpses should decrease your hunger level much more)

Last edited by Vozka : 11-25-2009 at 07:59 AM.
  #13  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:43 PM
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There are only a couple things that come to mind when talking about the food system. The first is the fact that the food bar goes down when you aren't logged in, making the first thing you have to do it run in circles confused trying to find food.

The second is add a skill like cooking make it where the more points you have in it the bigger the corpse you can cook and get a useful food amount out of it.

Just my two cents.
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  #14  
Old 11-25-2009, 12:44 PM
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Okay okay, I guess technically you don't die of starvation. How about I call them starvation related complications? Such as being stabbed by a goblin while running around in circles in confusion.
  #15  
Old 11-25-2009, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themadhobo View Post
Okay okay, I guess technically you don't die of starvation. How about I call them starvation related complications? Such as being stabbed by a goblin while running around in circles in confusion.
If you leave your character to go get something to eat in a place that isnt safe, where it could be attacked, food isnt the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crier View Post
There are only a couple things that come to mind when talking about the food system. The first is the fact that the food bar goes down when you aren't logged in, making the first thing you have to do it run in circles confused trying to find food.

The second is add a skill like cooking make it where the more points you have in it the bigger the corpse you can cook and get a useful food amount out of it.

Just my two cents.
This is something we are looking into.
Corpses, because they are uncooked etc have very little nutrition so dont do a lot for your food bar. We definitely need something. A skill expanded like tanning that allows you to tan the hide and prepare the food to be more nutricious has been discussed.


Time passes while you arent logged in, it effects your HP healing and other things and so would also effect your food bar.
You have several minutes when you log in when you are not confused to search for food without the effects of starvation. I think its like 6 minutes which is a very long time in game time to find free food (Which is easy to get to and many inns have or to run to the tavern and purchase some.
  #16  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:25 PM
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At the moment, if you screw up your build, it's usually quicker to delete than it is to get money to untrain. I think it would be beneficial to newer players if there was a cheaper way to untrain skills. How about sticking an untrainer in the NVU for cheaper prices?

I could see it being done in a two ways:
by lv:
- Only lv <= 12 can use the untrainer. (1k per skill untrained)
or by skill lv:
- Can only untrain skills that are lv <= 5 (1k per skill untrained)

Or some combination of the two
  #17  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:18 PM
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There is a hidden untrainer that costs a bit less - Obtaining what you need to ultimately locate him can be found in the starting towns.
  #18  
Old 11-25-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
Time passes while you arent logged in, it effects your HP healing and other things and so would also effect your food bar.
You have several minutes when you log in when you are not confused to search for food without the effects of starvation. I think its like 6 minutes which is a very long time in game time to find free food (Which is easy to get to and many inns have or to run to the tavern and purchase some.
You can fill up on hp/mp at most churches and hospitals for free, but food is different. The gained hp/mp when logging is a nice conveinence to players that haven't played in a while. The hunger at logging is just an annoyance for no real reason.

I like the free food at inns, but since it's a inn, there are usually many people in and out. The food doesn't respawn often.

As for taverns, it usually cost 1k to fill up (2k for giants), that's way too expensive. Change the gold cost to silver coins and that would be better. But make the food spoil in 2-10 min (so you can't take it with you on dungeon crawls).

I understand that food is also a way to constantly drain money from players. To do that, you would introduce food that high lvl players would likely eat (for a premium price). These premium foods would cast an enchantment spell on the player. Each city would have a regional food that makes sense, each would cast a certain spell on the player for a good duration (~20 min).

(GP & Bura Shaan might have a stew that casts resist cold on the player, Guilds might have something that gives them +1 fighting skill)
  #19  
Old 11-25-2009, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergy View Post
You can fill up on hp/mp at most churches and hospitals for free, but food is different.
As for taverns, it usually cost 1k to fill up (2k for giants), that's way too expensive.)

Taverns in low level towns have lower prices for new players, drastically reduced prices in NV tavern for example for those of appropriate low level, they will not pay 1k to fill up. And it does spoil faster.
Which is all in the news.

Higher levels should already know to have food when they log off or they have sufficient game knowledge to get a lot of food in the first few minutes when hunger does not effect you.
  #20  
Old 11-25-2009, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
I think its like 6 minutes which is a very long time in game time to find free food (Which is easy to get to and many inns have or to run to the tavern and purchase some.
But what if you have to watch youtube videos in that 6 minutes! It's definitely not long enough.
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