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  #1  
Old 05-16-2008, 02:16 AM
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Default Salkand's last plea against Platinum

First off I would like to point out that in the case of death magic, the wizardly concept of basing things off of Monster Killing and not Player Killing is flawed. Now, I do not consider using magic whip as any form of being a mage, meaning all the good death spells require a high cost reagent.

Destruction = 250 per cast, taking around 5-10 cast to kill monsters, with varying degree depending on the monster.
Death ray =1.5k per cast at the current market price. This spell is also easy to dodge in open spaces, and does not work on most high level monsters.
Blood dart = Even though it's reagent-less, it takes a lot of darts to kill even simply monsters, so it's not that useful of a spell.
(There are other death spells, but each has the same problems stated above).

So, as you can see, Death Magic is not very useful for killing any monster, and thus has only one real purpose, Player Killing. I loved being a death mage because although I wasn't the greatest PKer, I was at least considered good. It was a challenge for me to PK against others, and it was a challenge for others to Pk against me.

Very few players could withstand my Death Ray, and those who did usually died within a second, third, or even fourth shot. I always thought this balanced because it would cost me roughly 5k to kill any good PKer, and roughly 2-10k to kill anyone with destruction. It was also fun, for I could kill them, but I was weak to several things, making me killable as well.

How did Platinum ruin this?
Platinum items are actually pretty cheap compared to the benefits they give. A none-bungling glove would usually cost roughly 450-500k. I can not even sell my fancy whites for 250k, because platinum items give so much benefits. Furthermore, although you wizards keep claiming that no one can become immune, at 5 platinum items and a death pro, the death ray spell is completely nullified by a huge factor. Keep in mind that Platinum items are cheap enough that a lot of players have them, or are easily able to obtain them. (Excluding the one item I actually want, which is a different complain for my person turmoil).

I know what you will say in defense of Platinum items.
1. They cost a lot to get a full set.
A. It cost more to maintain being a death mage, as dragon claws over a month of active PKing will cost more than a few million. Top that off with mass amounts of Nightshade Berries.
2. It's unfair that a fully trained level 30 meleer will die to a death ray?
B. It isn't when the person casting said death ray is also near lv 30, and has probably spent 1-10k or more trying to kill you. In terms of LQ, they are suppose to be hard, that is what makes them fun.
3. You have destruction, a very powerful spell.
C. Destruction is not only expensive, but actually easy to get resist to, if you are smart enough to think for a change.
4. You have Petrify, another instant death spell.
D. Even the lowest resist will blank out petrify or stonewind, they generally don't work, or if they do, only once.

But I begin to bore you by now. As you can see, Death Magic is not balanced. How do we balance it? I do not know, up until Platinum items I considered death one of the few balanced skill-sets.
I hold no delusions, I know that Teshuvah will not remove the items, I am not expecting this and will not be disappointed when I learn they remain in the game. But I do expect for the wizards to at least take into consideration what I have said, as well as other facts. I hope you at least bother to think about balancing death, or I fear this already small population shall cease to exists, like so many other classes.
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  #2  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:13 PM
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try other spells, i think blood dart used to work fine, you can also try dragon breath, fireball, firebolt, etc... Also, platinum is metal, so many guilds will have armor restrictions about them.
  #3  
Old 05-16-2008, 11:09 PM
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I wonder if there was ever any "Life mages" or "Earth mages"...
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  #4  
Old 05-17-2008, 01:27 AM
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Dragon breath is 60% of the time useless in PK, and you can't carry enough reagents to make it worthwhile in MK.

I already said that blood dart was too weak to use for MK or PK.

Firebolt is only good for weaker monsters, and I already use fireball, which puts me at a disadvantage during MK against those who use fireball and blizzard.

Which guilds have restrictions against platinum items? I can't think of any.

There are no life spells good enough to fight, or earth spells for that matter.
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  #5  
Old 05-17-2008, 01:54 AM
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The problem with death ray (and stone wind) is that they are instant death. Monsters instantly killing you isn't fun (unless you're me) because you have to run all the way back to where you were, and you lose a lot of xp. Because of this there should be plenty of ways to at least avoid that aspect when attacking a monster. (Doing so does, after all, limit your gear in that you are using slots just to resist)

However, dying instantly in PK is no big deal at all.

The core of wyvern is killing monsters, as such, spells and gear should be made with them in mind. PK is an extra, and is going to be innately "off". Especially since Players and monsters are very, very different.

Remember, monsters don't pay for regents or worry about mana. What you want is to ask that death ray be made more useful to players. It is after all, fairly useless for what it takes to cast it. (Need high lore, not effective on anything that gives xp that's worth the cost)

I know it affects other spells as well, but also consider the tough time archers have as well. I hear that the armor gives dodge. Have you tried to pk with an archer? You have to ask politely for people to stand still. And even if you do catch them off guard, dodge virtually nullifies arrows. PK is not balanced, period. It all has to do with various design flaws in the whole combat system. Arguing against new stuff based on the most flawed part of that system just isn't fruitful.

Last edited by Logwad : 05-17-2008 at 02:01 AM.
  #6  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:03 AM
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I already stated that death magic itself is very unbalanced when considered in MK. It is an element with only PK as it's purpose. If you wanted to fix this you would have to get rid of all reagents for death spells.

The biggest problem with this now is death mages have the same problems as the other mages. Resist were made too high even for most monsters, now it messes us players up.
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  #7  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:05 AM
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Rogues can't wear metal ._.
Rangers can't wear metal...

yeah....
  #8  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:07 AM
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O no, the 2 rouges that never play can't use platinum. Oh god no, the rangers are doomed to die to my death ray!

No offense to rangers, but I fireball them to begin with, and rouges. . . I don't even remember the last time I saw a rouge.
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  #9  
Old 05-17-2008, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkand View Post
O no, the 2 rouges that never play can't use platinum. Oh god no, the rangers are doomed to die to my death ray!

No offense to rangers, but I fireball them to begin with, and rouges. . . I don't even remember the last time I saw a rouge.
No offense to salkands, but I can't remember the last time I saw someone that had only one spell to use in pk that worked. There is a reason there aren't death only mages, as a matter of fact, most mages specialize in many spells for PK, why should things change so that you can have one spell that works ?

Deathray is instakill when someone is weak in that area. No fighting back if they are a little weak, no healing...just ... dead...Other elements don't have the option of paying more for the reagent and being able to instakill players.

If players want to pay a million+ gp and a lot of time and effort to become immune to ONE spell, and that is what this discussion of yours boils down to, that is the definition of balanced.

T
  #10  
Old 05-17-2008, 09:16 AM
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Rangers, monks and rogues. 3 entires guilds have armor restriction.
  #11  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:05 PM
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"We do not take into consideration PK when we balance the game"`--Teshuvah

I'm sorry tesh, but you wizards don't balance the game to PK, and death magic is useless for MK. . . how is that balanced?

and as a side note, I have never used just one element to PK. But Death Ray was a huge part of PKing against many people. But for most battles before I ever used death ray, I would have used destruction, fireball, dragon breath, Etc.

And combinations of them all.
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Last edited by Salkand : 05-17-2008 at 02:23 PM.
  #12  
Old 05-17-2008, 08:13 PM
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Platinum stuffs is here to stay.

Cry me a river, Emo Kid.
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  #13  
Old 05-17-2008, 09:10 PM
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Wait for a PK LQ, Salkand. Avoid combat until you're one of the last ones left. Chances are, the only players left will be nagas.

Usually, nagas are monks. DR them, Petrify them, whatever.
  #14  
Old 05-18-2008, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silico View Post
Wait for a PK LQ, Salkand. Avoid combat until you're one of the last ones left. Chances are, the only players left will be nagas.

Usually, nagas are monks. DR them, Petrify them, whatever.
I thought the last people left in a PK LQ are Myke and someone else?

And if it's any consolation, myke noted that he did not appreciate the platinum armor in today's LQ. u:
  #15  
Old 05-18-2008, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binyamin
Platinum stuffs is here to stay.

Cry me a river, Emo Kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkand
I hold no delusions, I know that Teshuvah will not remove the items, I am not expecting this and will not be disappointed when I learn they remain in the game. But I do expect for the wizards to at least take into consideration what I have said, as well as other facts.
I don't believe this post had anything to do with removing platinum items. It was about taking death magic into consideration in terms of "Is is balanced" and "someone should at least try to balance it for MK."
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  #16  
Old 05-18-2008, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkand View Post
I don't believe this post had anything to do with removing platinum items. It was about taking death magic into consideration in terms of "Is is balanced" and "someone should at least try to balance it for MK."
Monsters have no problem using it to kill with.
  #17  
Old 05-18-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkand View Post
I don't believe this post had anything to do with removing platinum items. It was about taking death magic into consideration in terms of "Is is balanced" and "someone should at least try to balance it for MK."
It *IS* balanced. One set of armor items that are outrageously priced that happen to counteract your one uber spell and you're having kittens. Sulky--get over yourself before I start locking topics.
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  #18  
Old 05-18-2008, 03:52 PM
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I would have to agree with Salkand on this subject. I believe these platinum armor are too overpowered as well. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. Too much bonus.
With a full set of platinum armor, for a level 30 player you can definitely max your dodge, plus I guess 60% death resist and 150% confusion resist. Don't you think that pretty much makes any HOFer death-proof? If you can't get confused, wear a lifesaving amulet in a rd and is equipped with 60 dodge, what monster is there that can kill you? I don't know if anyone noticed that a lot of players left because healing was nerfed; and what was the purpose of that? to keep high level players from being death-proof.

2. Too cheap.
I know a full set of plats cost well over 1 million gold. But look at it this way, before platinums if you wanted the fancy, robe and hat it probably cost you 1 million, so it is really not much more expensive than what we had to pay. For the newer players, instead of saving 500k for a fancy or jaunty, they are just spending the same amount on platinum gear. For the older players most of us have accumulated enough wealth to buy the armors without emptying out our pockets. So in the end, all you did was take back a few million gold coins from the players, which we will make that money back in a month.

3. Too many.
I don't know why we needed platinum girdles and bracers. Isn't the normal 5 armor (hat, robe, bodyarmor,boot,gloves) enough? It sort of makes the evasion girdle a joke doesn't it? +3 dodge? who gives a ****!

4. Too easy to get
OK everyone knows where to get the platinum armor, so can we close down every other armor shop and reopen it as a elf house for lower level players?

5. Too inbalanced
Salkand and all has already discussed it, I'm just going to put my 2 cents on the subject. I think these armor are too meleer friendly, and only for those in guilds that allows them to wear it. For mages we don't need 60 dodge, I lived with 30 dodge and I'm fine with it. The extra bonus is also great for meleers who now are practically immune to reapers (and other monsters), and also the most powerful spell in PK. You know, I have 30 death trained as well but I've scratched my 14th lore skill because there is no point in learning death ray now. The reagent is heavy and expensive and I can't even kill a level 20 pally with it.

Hm... That's it, thank you for reading.
  #19  
Old 05-18-2008, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
I would have to agree with Salkand on this subject. I believe these platinum armor are too overpowered as well. Here are some of my thoughts:
Thank you for bringing up points that at least make sense Now I will happily address them for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
1. Too much bonus.
With a full set of platinum armor, for a level 30 player you can definitely max your dodge, plus I guess 60% death resist and 150% confusion resist. Don't you think that pretty much makes any HOFer death-proof? If you can't get confused, wear a lifesaving amulet in a rd and is equipped with 60 dodge, what monster is there that can kill you? I don't know if anyone noticed that a lot of players left because healing was nerfed; and what was the purpose of that? to keep high level players from being death-proof.
The point of the healing nerf was not to stop players from being death proof first of all, it was to stop a bug in healing, but that's an old topic so I will go on, being death magic resistant, and confusion resistant (mind you it is not possible to get 100% nevermind 150%) will not make you death proof, the obits are quite evident of that fact on a regular basis. So monsters are still killing them. So that point is moot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
2. Too cheap.
I know a full set of plats cost well over 1 million gold. But look at it this way, before platinums if you wanted the fancy, robe and hat it probably cost you 1 million, so it is really not much more expensive than what we had to pay. For the newer players, instead of saving 500k for a fancy or jaunty, they are just spending the same amount on platinum gear. For the older players most of us have accumulated enough wealth to buy the armors without emptying out our pockets. So in the end, all you did was take back a few million gold coins from the players, which we will make that money back in a month.
Most older players have emptied their bank accounts on a few pieces and are still not able to buy what they want, so I dont buy that point. 1 or 2 players is a minority, for most, a few pieces and they are broke again and out training , selling to make money for their next piece.
Btw every one of these points totally ignores that they are not easy to get and do not include that in any of your equations, you might want to do that.
But I will conceed they may be too inexpensive, the prices are random and do change but that can be adjusted in time if needed quite easily.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
3. Too many.
I don't know why we needed platinum girdles and bracers. Isn't the normal 5 armor (hat, robe, bodyarmor,boot,gloves) enough? It sort of makes the evasion girdle a joke doesn't it? +3 dodge? who gives a ****!
You aint seen nothing yet and yes Janica's LQ items are all jokes in one way or another and aren't even a consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
4. Too easy to get
OK everyone knows where to get the platinum armor, so can we close down every other armor shop and reopen it as a elf house for lower level players?
You obviously dont have plat that you stood for days waiting to get and lost items to pests attempting to get, or died trying to get. So your comment about other armor stores are make no sense what so ever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithigram View Post
5. Too inbalanced
Salkand and all has already discussed it, I'm just going to put my 2 cents on the subject. I think these armor are too meleer friendly, and only for those in guilds that allows them to wear it. For mages we don't need 60 dodge, I lived with 30 dodge and I'm fine with it. The extra bonus is also great for meleers who now are practically immune to reapers (and other monsters), and also the most powerful spell in PK. You know, I have 30 death trained as well but I've scratched my 14th lore skill because there is no point in learning death ray now. The reagent is heavy and expensive and I can't even kill a level 20 pally with it.

Hm... That's it, thank you for reading.
It is very melee friendly which is why it does not bungle to give mages the edge with it.
1 of its restrictions is guilds, thats another thing that makes it balanced, most players cant even wear a full set.
Players wearing plat armor have no problem with deathray killing the same monsters they did before plat came out, so the PK point is a dead horse and ive addressed that in an earlier post.
To quote Rhialto, we balance the game, and PK as entertainment will follow as players adapt.
And I will repeat, players spend millions to beat 1 spell in PK is the defination of being balanced.

Hope that explained some to you. Most players are opting for only 1 or 2 pieces , in some cases 3 pieces. When AC is fixed they will become much less important as well.
High level players have not had a piece of new armor in years, it was well past time for them to have more choices.
The benefit that the price gouging between friends for +10 armor has stopped is a side benefit The economy is working itself well once again, players are excited about new "sets" of skills, this is all a good thing and in the end will improve Wyvern.

I will be happy to answer any other questions about it you have (except from salkand).

T
  #20  
Old 05-18-2008, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah
The economy is working itself well once again
It was working before?
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