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General For serious discussions about general Wyvern topics. |
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#61
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first of all i really dont care if LOL is an acrylum or whatever and 2nd what is a BRMA annnnd.....forgot the other ones
btw the hard part is not programming but planning the game..... for examply the naga thing he did was awesome so i want like... some kind of shapeshifter..... but not a naga cause the to much the same... btw i remembered the other one....annnd i forgot again nvm |
#62
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*raises an eyebrow* Well, right before the game went down we celebrated a 10 year anniversary on February 4th. So 10 years before that would be a good a bet.
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#63
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Your writing hurts my eyes, go back to 5th grade english class please.
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"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." - Steve Prefontaine Glacio (Frost Giant Axeman) (level 30) Then (Human Mage) (level 28) Shoot (Rakshasa Caveman) (level 26) Magiz (Halfling Enchanter) (level 26) Patron (Human Conjurer) (level 25) Dboss (Halfling Rogue) (level 25) |
#64
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That would make sense Arilou.. geez, I wish I would have thought about it myself for a second.
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#65
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Frosten imagine his coding...
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#66
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I'm honestly interested in his game. What I say we do is encourage him, so he will go make his game and leave us alone.
So, dat gam is sounds sweats bro i cant wat 4 it!!!!!1!!!
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"Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order [...] and the like." - Justice William O. Douglas "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security would deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin |
#67
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I don't care if you hate my typing skills. And if you really wanted Wyvern back up you would care about my game lol, BTW if it wasn't his idea for Nagas who's was it???
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#68
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Nagas are mythological creatures found predominantly in Hindu belief - Generally, game designers have a solid grasp of not just the language they're designing their game in, but history as well. I say this because it's interesting that you would write that you think people would be satisfied with your fictitious game as an alternative for Wyvern when Wyvern was born from the imaginations of multiple individuals who were highly versed in history, mythology, and fantasy - Rhialto, Kiz, and others have quite a bit of experience with D&D, while I personally am a lifelong student of history/mythology (hence, I majored in history while in college). Meanwhile, I and most wizards are avid readers of, among other things, fantasy. These backgrounds (that I have only barely touched upon) are the reason for everything in the game from our unique spell system, to our selection of monsters/races/armor/weapons, to the areas/quests/stories we designed, and so on.
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#69
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It gives me so much rage, when people talk about trying to recreate "Wyvern" or making their own "game".
I personally advocate for the open sourcing of Wyvern, or if people really care, to start making a "clone" like it, and open sourcing that (desperate option). But who has time for that, right?!
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The dark cries of the past and the future is inevitable, power is where everything is at. I look toward the day of being the best I can be. |
#70
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#71
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Time for me to log on to oppose the Harbringer stance on open sourcing again. And I will begin with the fact that if this josiah can actually make a decent wyvern style game (not optimistic but not about to shoot down the dude if he actually is putting in effort to make said game) it could be very much alike an open source wyvern anyway. If you open source the game people will jack it around and make it into what they feel wyvern should be and then you get what equates to a wyvern clone and not the original wyvern made in the way R viewed it to be. Now if this guy makes a crummy clone (if he is even actually making a clone) then it would be a failed attempt at a game but open sourcing is not the answer. Wyvern would become the ultimate wyvern clone if it is open sourced and people were aloud to alter it the way they wanted it to be.
And for josiah. I hope that you are able to make the game that you claim to be making however the stance you have taken on this game you are making is rather childish and not supporting the idea that you are even capable of making such a game. Now maybe you have just been flustered but the points people have brought up (legal issues, pointing out countless spelling and grammatical errors that could lead to damaged and corrupted lines of code, lack of studying on history and myth to add to your game) are all legitimate and if you want to share what could be your version of wyvern and a potential masterpiece you should carry yourself in a more mature manner in order to show your confidence without sounding like a cocky child. Take what I said however you want and good luck to you on making your game if that really is what your trying to do. |
#72
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I do not support this encouragement
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#73
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This may just be imho and I hope this is not taken the wrong way, because I love the work the wizards have done in all their different creations, but what really stands out to me about wyvern is the framework, and how its meant to incorporate player designed maps and content, the tools designed for creating such were R's gift to all us wyvernites and we have to thank the wizards for taking and pushing that framework as far as they were able(and hopefully farther in the future) to make the great content wyvern has.
Making a basic 2d game is not incredibly difficult, I know I was doing it before I was out of high school, hell I even did a couple 3d fps's that were kinda of unartworked clones of doom, but what I learned is difficult and takes real experience and a lot deeper than high school knowledge is combining that as an mmo, chat channels, a trade system, a system for moderation, bug reporting and repair, especially a gui for both the game and the map builders, how to make it so you dont overload a server with sheer useless information and requests causing lag or capping player load. The list goes on and on and I know the wizards could give better examples than I ever could, but all of this takes a lot of forethought and planning that's only going to be there after you've dealt with and experienced these problems, and your just not going to be in these kinds of projects in high school, and what I think this kid is missing is that wyvern is NOT a basic 2d game, theres many a reason we all sit here and wait for it to come back. Last edited by thedib : 01-25-2013 at 09:52 PM. |
#74
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The current system is really tough for programmers to contribute. It is well known within the comp sci community that there is typically a huge disconnect between programmers & UI/map makers. Requiring programmers to make a decent 40 map area will eliminate all but the few skilled in both disciplines. With open source you can get these skilled programmers without requiring them to go through the tough process to become wizards. In summary, open sourcing wyvern would allow for continuous development of bug fixes and new features even during the times that R takes an extended break. And yes I do know there are several negatives as well, quests could be much much easier, and people could scour the code in an attempt to find exploits. Buuut, I just want to see a wyvern that grows and where people add ambitious new features to keep the game feeling modern. |
#75
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When Rhialto made wizards responsible for handling promotions, he made a point to say that we were allowed to promote artists/programmers without requiring them to make an area. He also made reference to this in the quest an area guidelines as you can see below:
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Granted, there are still places on the website that say programmers have to make an area first (like in the wizard FAQ) and while we did promote artists without requiring them to make an area we never were able to do so for a programmer. However, the game was intended to be able to mostly address your concern in its current form (I say mostly because they wouldn't have very much access to fix game bugs, but they could free up time for those that would by doing other work and they could be given buggy content to redo from time to time). The problem is that when Rhialto stopped actively working on the game, Teshuvah and I were the ones who primarily stuck around to deal with things and we were not coders. So, although I have always very much wanted to be able to promote people based on their specific skill sets as I too have seen the pitfalls of trying to make programmers create maps first, we were not qualified to judge people based on the code they submitted to us. What we needed was a high ranking programmer willing and able to give people a yay or nay based on coding examples and assigned work that people submitted. That person then needed to be willing and able to keep on top of them and guide them in the work they did as wizards. Of course, we have had high ranking programmers in Rhialto's absence; specially Legolas, Raeden, and Contrare. However, Legolas ended up retiring a little bit later, Raeden didn't stick around long after Legolas left, and Contrare was unwilling to judge people based on their code as he didn't feel like he could properly gauge where they were at. However, Contrare is an extremely talented programmer who was able to do a lot of the work that Rhialto normally would have done, including fixing the a ton of long standing bugs (some of which had previously proved vexing for Rhialto). So the game was able to make a tremendous push forward before being taken down and could have continued to progress greatly had Rhialto worked out the server issues that not only made it difficult for us to handle very many people playing consecutively, but also led to our current situation. |
#76
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In my opinion, projects work best if they have one person manage it from the point of concept to the point of completion. This person does not have to do all the work themselves, but they do have to have the final say (benevolent dictator).
Rule by committee nearly always sucks, except in extreme cases where 'teh suckiness' becomes a defining asset to prevent rule by tyranny in an area of life that actually matters (life, liberty, and property). “Art is never finished, only abandoned.” by Leonardo da Vinci I feel wyvern is at the point of abandonment. Although it is not complete (and never will be), is is complete enough to be set free into the world and take on it's own life... I would prefer to see:
Wyvern, the game that we know and love, would still be under private control, but maybe we would see a wyvern-like game. Such as 'System X5nGy: The revolt of the space mice.' And maybe the creator of this game will solve a bug with the wyvern engine, R will see it and implement it into wyvern. |
#77
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Rhialto was very clear about who retained the rights to what in the game's early documentation: "You own any content that you create for Wyvern. We reserve the right to modify it to maintain game balance, or take it out of the game entirely, but it's still your content. You can think of it a bit like creating your own home page on a site like GeoCities ( http://www.geocities.com). GeoCities doesn't own those home pages, but they own the site and the engine for displaying the pages, and they can veto any content they don't like. If we sell Wyvern to someone, they may change the rules and policies regarding player-created content - that's their perogative. However, you will still own any content you've created for the game, even if ownership of the game transfers to someone else." Source: http://web.archive.org/web/200306180....html#Content_ So, it could happen that next to nobody (who is reachable - many aren't and by default their answer would be no, not yes) would consent to giving up their work and that means that [in this hypothetical scenario] an open source Wyvern would have to rebuild the game's playable content, almost from scratch. I don't have the number of art and arch files used in the game handy, (although it is a staggering amount and, as I said, there are far more in private directories than in the core files) but there are over 10,000 maps in Wyvern and there are only 200-300 that actually belong to Cabochon Technologies (take out the really bad, dated ones and you're left with maybe 100). Of course, realistically, you'd have a mixed bag of responses from wizards, so you wouldn't have that few maps to work with, but you'd still lose a lot of stuff that made the game what it was. You'd also have really big problem if a large chunk of content becomes unusable because so much is inter-dependent - We use so much content from each other's wiz directories in making our areas that it may surprise you just how many maps would stop working. This presents two problems. The first is the work required to fix all these maps and the second is the potential for declining willingness of wizards to make broken content available for public use. If you built a set of maps that relies heavily on wizards who refuse to make their content public, are you really going to want to put the work in to lower the quality of your maps by replacing all those things or let someone else butcher the quality of your maps? Not likely. So A, B, and C declining to let their content go public could lead to X, Y, and Z to do so as well and then you end up with a similar scenario as I initially presented. Quote:
This would especially be the case if a copy of the game remains in his control as, as stupid as it is to compete with other versions of your own game, it's even dumber to not keep such an edge over them. Although, honestly, that would never happen - Rhialto is not going to be competing with other Wyverns and the only way he would ever open source the game is if he gave up on it entirely and therefore was open sourcing it as a way for his work to live on without him. And as I've said in the past, he's flirted with the idea of open sourcing the game on and off since 2004. However, he has instead kept paying a bunch of money for it to remain up for years without much involvement from him, trusted select people with access to the source code so the game wouldn't die while he waited to decide what to do, (that was a huge deal for him) and for long stretches of time he has preferred that it remain down than up and in the hands of whoever. So, although he might reference that as a possibility from time to time, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one - It's rather evident to me that he likes the idea of possibly doing something with Wyvern in the future and, even though that seems rather unlikely to come to pass, at this point, I don't see him giving up that possibility after holding on to it for so long. Although, this is just my personal opinion - I can't say for sure what Rhialto will or will not do... obviously. |
#78
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Arilou, everything you say makes me sad, but makes a lot of sense.
I am especially saddened that what you said makes it clear I will never have the opportunity to dive into his code . There is so much going on in wyvern & R is so known, it would have been so cool learn from his work. I was definitely unaware that all the wizard content was owned by the individual wizards. That's very good of R. |
#79
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Who knows what type of game they might build (steampunk, sci-fi, fantasy, historical fiction, etc.), but whatever it may be one thing would be perfectly clear: It would not be Wyvern. When I wrote my previous post, I was hoping for the following to be released:
I think this would cover enough bases to give prospective game developers a good idea on how to do things. Yes it would be semi-competitive with wyvern, but I think the cooperative aspects (others independently improving on the game engine) would outweigh the competitiveness. Wyvern would take on a similar role to Half-Life. |
#80
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