A Brand New Way To Make Things Easier For New Players?

[kiez]

Well, I know that the issue of new players not sticking around has been beaten to death on the forums, but I thought I might post a suggestion that I have not seen yet that also does not criticize the work of the Wizards and Rhialto, nor strive to change game mechanics or give "free bonuses" to the players or in any other way change rules, fixes, etc.

I tend to create a lot of low level characters and delete them (usually) repeatedly until I create something both fun and relatively easy to play. In doing this, I have noticed that the main problem is that I simply do not know where to begin in my skill sets, and when I see shouts from people who are clearly new players, their questions are nearly always "Where can I get a lot of gold?" or "Where can I level up fast?" This is a terrible mistake since gold, the way new people want to use it, hardly helps at the beginning due to wield/wear levels. The only thing it is all that great for is spellbooks for mage characters and training, which most new players simply do not understand how to do effectively. In Wyvern, skill sets are more important than any other game me or my wife has ever played. So it is natural that new players don't really ask about skill training or spend their gold in it, because most games simply don't have the same game play priorities as Wyvern. They want to buy the cool armor and watch their HP/SP bars grow before worrying about skills which they think take a supporting role. The bottom line is that, aside from the occasional player who picks up on game play really fast, most newcomers simply do not understand the importance of skill training or what to train and do not ask. Obviously, we as the loyal player base cannot spam new players with information they don't ask for. That will scare them off. So my proposal is the following.

There should be one item in the tutorial tower that is a requirement to at least pick up to leave. It would be a new item. If we can have Wyvern High Score Lists and Death Lists, why not have Skill Set Recommendation Lists for low players that is matched to their race? I know that the player manual lists things such as, "If you have a slow connection, you may not want to be a spellcaster," or other basic ideas like "It is difficult to create a Stone Giant Mage." However, instead of repeating player manual information, these lists would give more specific information without telling you what you have to do. For example, speaking as a Dwarf, a Skill Set Recommendation List could look something like this:

Standard Meleer Dwarf
1. Try to keep your Axe skill trained to your level.
2. Healing is an important skill point to train as a standard Dwarf.
3. You may want to retrain your skills later, but Dodge is a good skill to train at lower levels.
4. Strength will increase your damage and also allows you to carry more so you can earn gold faster.
5. Find Weakness can really boost your damage, and is especially effective at higher player levels.
6. Lore and other magic skills are not especially effective as a Dwarf, even for those low cost spells you may think could be useful once in a while. You would do better to train your skills elsewhere.

Now, clearly, not everybody wants to make the "bash the monster at all costs" Dwarf I have, so there could even be multiple lists per race, which might work especially well with Pixies and Halflings who specialize in different arts from player to player. In other races, the alternate lists might emphasize something like a not quite standard "Pre-Monk" where early on, a Rakshasa would invest in 4 lore to buy confuse, fear, and paralysis and maybe 2 or so mind an evocation with the rest going to combat related skills. The list could even go so far as to say something very specific, but non-binding such as (this would be for a Dwarf again):

"For your first level, we recommend you put a skill point into Healing and Strength in the trainer room here in the tower, and we also recommend you seek out the axe trainer in New Verden and spend your final skill point in axes."

The one thing I would not recommend doing is suggesting full builds. Part of the fun of Wyvern is the customization available in the game. I would suggest that the lists only suggest their own relevance up to level 3, or maybe 4 in the more complicated builds. In other terms, lists should be phrased to sound like they are only meant for the earliest levels, and may or may not apply after that.

Of course, just as a technicality, I will point out that, in my opinion, it would be unwise to recommend difficult but relatively effective builds like mage/melee nagas, or the money making merchant/smith/tanner builds and the like, which is something I hope should be readily obvious.

The nice thing about this, is that the only real coding that I can think of would involve the requirement of picking up the list before leaving. Even if a player was not required to pick up the scroll to finish the tutorial, when new players ask for help, we regulars could point them to the list(s) in the tutorial tower. High score list images could be recycled, putting the right lists with the right races is the same as putting the right NPCs with the right player races, and the text found in the lists would barely qualify as coding at all, and we could even have player submissions for lists that could be reviewed, selected, and edited to get a broad base of input.

Ultimately, to sum up my ideas, I think that we should emphasize to new players the importance of skill sets over money and armor in the early portions of the game. However, I do not think we should simply tell them that is important, because that leaves them hanging a little clueless. (My first character was a Frost Giant I wanted to make an axeman, and I invested lore, evocation, and mind to get fear working at a usable level, not understanding that it would be virtually uncastable as an axeman) We should give them a push in the right direction, at the very least, suggesting which skills would make play easier for them while still providing the early flexibility to determine a type of specialty (like casting healing spells versus training in healing) that appeals to them through multiple Skill Recommendation Lists. However, the crutch which is the List should feel relevant for only so long to allow them to expand and use their creativity once they understand the game, and (hopefully) begin to really enjoy it. In this way, maybe we can begin to rebuild our player base by creating a standard, yet more personal and in depth overview of the REALLY important things in Wyvern - skill points.

Feel free to contradict me completely, I know there are some of you who would swear up and down that people don't have this issue with skill points. But hopefully we can at least stay out of the negative comments and bickering that so often permeates the threads with this basic topic. However, I hope that there are a few of you who get the basic idea I am driving at and who have ideas to refine it if the wizards deem this a legitimate possibility. Please fill out the poll as well, read all the responses because they are not all the normal agree/disagree answers. Results will be public so that it is possible to connect the circumstantial answers with the "basic difficulty" answers in order to get the best possible data from this.

[Valkon]

Wyvern is not supposed to be easy. Everything you do should be something to think about, every choice has it's pro's and con's. It's for the player to find out what choices they have and which choice is best.

[Arilou]

You're welcome to recommend skill sets on your own webpage. If one were to build up such a fan website and it was good, I'd link to it on the cabochon homepage. I might even be willing to link to a Wyvern wiki if it was sufficiently built up by the players.

[themadhobo]

I like this idea a lot, but I don't think that recommended skill sets would be good for new players. What happens if lots of people just start characters based on the recommended sets? Then we start seeing cookie cutter new players all doing the same thing. What about something similar with "Skill Tips" for new players. Maybe even just give them a list of which skill are generall offensive, defensive and miscellaneous so they can start dreaming up their skills.

[kiez]

Originally Posted by themadhobo

What happens if lots of people just start characters based on the recommended sets? Then we start seeing cookie cutter new players all doing the same thing.

Well, that is the general idea here, that we basically give new players new information, but how much and how specific could be controlled. It is not meant to play the game for, but rather be a learning curve. It could be as vague or concrete as you want it, and ideally it should not feel applicable for very long in order to encourage the expansion you were talking about. I understand that this would most likely be difficult to word, but could pay off in the long run by keeping more players around.

Originally Posted by themadhobo

Maybe even just give them a list of which skill are generall offensive, defensive and miscellaneous so they can start dreaming up their skills.

I do agree with your unspoken notion that my examples were too specific. After all, we cannot just tell players what to do, nor give them a list that applies throughout their play, but I also think that your idea may also be a bit vague. I think telling a Rakshasa that whips is an offensive skill might lead to alot of frustration because, while we know that is simply not as good as other things and also more difficult, the players don't always read the manual (I know this is their problem, but they don't understand just how big a problem it is), don't know how to check skills, and simply don't ask. What if the thoughts so far met somewhere in the middle and instead told them good offensive/defensive/support/miscellaneous skills that fit in with their class. For example, we would not include clubs in the list with Pixies, whips with Rakshasas, or water magic with Stone Giants.

As a side note, Valkon has already shot down the idea, so I will leave the thread to itself unless somebody else likes the idea and decides to take up its cause or has a new suggestion for how it might work better within the basic idea of "choices" that Wyvern revolves around.

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by kiez

Well, that is the general idea here, that we basically give new players new information, but how much and how specific could be controlled. It is not meant to play the game for, but rather be a learning curve. It could be as vague or concrete as you want it, and ideally it should not feel applicable for very long in order to encourage the expansion you were talking about. I understand that this would most likely be difficult to word, but could pay off in the long run by keeping more players around.



I do agree with your unspoken notion that my examples were too specific. After all, we cannot just tell players what to do, nor give them a list that applies throughout their play, but I also think that your idea may also be a bit vague. I think telling a Rakshasa that whips is an offensive skill might lead to alot of frustration because, while we know that is simply not as good as other things and also more difficult, the players don't always read the manual (I know this is their problem, but they don't understand just how big a problem it is), don't know how to check skills, and simply don't ask. What if the thoughts so far met somewhere in the middle and instead told them good offensive/defensive/support/miscellaneous skills that fit in with their class. For example, we would not include clubs in the list with Pixies, whips with Rakshasas, or water magic with Stone Giants.

As a side note, Valkon has already shot down the idea, so I will leave the thread to itself unless somebody else likes the idea and decides to take up its cause or has a new suggestion for how it might work better within the basic idea of "choices" that Wyvern revolves around.

The idea sparked a discussion among the wizards and while eventually the tutorial itself needs completely redone with many changes and improvements that were brought up in the previous thread, for now, some changes are being discussed in the short term in the tutorial that should at least point new players in the right direction until they learn more about the game.

[themadhobo]

We could make a fresh thread asking current players for the #1 piece of information they wish they knew when they started and go from there.

[Irlazy]

Way to go with the constructive opinions kiez! *gives kiez a cookie*

[Teshuvah]

Originally Posted by themadhobo

We could make a fresh thread asking current players for the #1 piece of information they wish they knew when they started and go from there.

That was already hashed to death in another earlier thread.

[kiez]

Thank you for the compliment Irlazy. However, my real reason for posting now is unfortunately to disagree with themadhobo even though tesh has already explained that his suggestion has been done before. Part of the problem early on is that players try to get the information they want, but end up frustrated with the game because results simply are not appearing. If we give players more information, it needs to be geared toward what will truly help them. Not what they think is good. After all, what do they know? They have never played. I happen to think that the help they really need is learning how to use their skill points effectively, hence the reason for this thread. However, if it is decided that the problem lies somewhere else, more power to that. The goal, (at least for me) is about keeping the game enjoyable enough for people to get accustomed to it instead of leaving. Maybe the lack of information lies somewhere besides effective skill point use. However, no matter where the problem lies, we need to give people that information. Not tell them what they misguidedly ask for and nothing else. If anybody has a different idea for that, it should go to a different thread. I am not saying that it has no relevance. I will be active in those threads myself. I am just trying to keep information clear so that ideas don't get lost in conversation and forgotten as happens all to often. Although, criticisms are always welcome. They are what really refine the thought process.

[themadhobo]

Even if I went off on a tangent in the other direction I still like your idea, so if you get it rolling let me know if you want me to try to help with anything.

[kiez]

It really all depends on the wizards. If they like it, they will most likely refine it themselves rather than have people help out. However, it may not matter as it sounds like some sort of change will happen to the tutorial soon, according to the wizards' responses to this. Especially Teshuvah's.

[Arilou]

If you want players to have suggested skill sets, that's up to you and other players. We're not interested in giving players "official" recommendations on how they should choose to build their character, but if players want to offer their opinions, they are more than welcome to do so. Again, if it's done as part of a larger project, "by the player, for the players," () I'd probably be willing to help you "get the word out."

But further, skill sets are not really useful to brand new players. They have limited access to both available skill points and gold. So what they need is just some idea of what types of things they could start training in. We have a lot of ideas on how we'd like to see a tutorial redo go and one of those was some race specific skill tips/help. After speaking with Teshuvah it was decided that it's a small little bit that's fairly easy to implement, so there was no reason we couldn't set that up now(ish). It's unlikely to have much of an impact, but it will be nice for those who take the time to do the tutorial.

[kiez]

Well, even a little is sure to help more than nothing. I was not expecting full skill sets to pass, nor would I endorse them over general ideas. I am glad to see that this, or at least an offshoot of this, may get put into the tutorial for now. It is certainly going to help players who actually bother to do the tutorial a little bit. Miracles aren't expected, but then again, Wyvern wasn't built in a day.

[Harbringer Of Good Stuff]

When it comes to skill sets certain races tend to have more of an advantage than others when it comes to a specific build or class, which makes me believe that some races are not properly balanced. I would never make a human archer or human mage, when there is an another class with more mana and bonuses out there, such as a halfing.

To make the game more easier for new players, it would be nice if they felt more in tune with the game, especially if it could stir the imagination further. It would be nice if new characters had more gear at the start and light source. A human with a shield and a sword allows for the player imagine that they actually blocked an attack, while a human with a sword cant block attacks. But then again it all depends on the imagination of the player, a human with a sword could potentially parry or dodge the attacks, while a shield and sword makes it harder to dodge.

As a beginner spell-caster, say pixie, you do not really feel that empowered. You start of with a spell called magic dart and are really short with low hp, and you can get killed by goblins and kobolds. In New Verden you dont get that much space to use magic dart that effectively since the monsters are so close to you, also there seems to be a delay in the magic dart spell...

I have so much more to say on how things could be easier for new players, the demonstration with the Baby Wyvern and the mage assisstant in NVU tells players about the potential dangers of monsters, and more examples like this should be incorporated in the tutorial, heck, move the whole New Verden University to the Tutorial >.>.

I believe players should spend more time in the tutorial.

[Arilou]

Originally Posted by Harbringer Of Good Stuff

When it comes to skill sets certain races tend to have more of an advantage than others when it comes to a specific build or class, which makes me believe that some races are not properly balanced. I would never make a human archer or human mage, when there is an another class with more mana and bonuses out there, such as a halfing.

And you think this is a problem, why? If every race had the same opportunities, we might as well not have races at all as the alternative would be for them to be identical in every area, but their appearance. Which is obviously not a good idea.

Instead, the game has very clearly been designed around having diverse races that specialize in certain areas and do horribly (or so-so) in others. Dwarves are meant to be hardy fighters and horrible mages, elves are meant to be excellent archers and horrible fighters, and if you're now finding it to be not so worth it to have the extra skill point advantage as a Human whatever, (over the natural stats of specialized races) that is an excellent sign of recent balance updates as Humans have long been largely overrepresented in pretty much all fields.

I'm not sure how one doesn't get that this is exactly how we want things but fyi, balance is determined by how well races do in their encouraged fields. That means that if we make a race that is geared toward becoming a ranger and we make another race that is geared toward becoming a caveman, true balance would mean aiming for both of them to be able to gain XP at about the same rate (which, as you can imagine, is not so easy). Therefore, if you choose to train one of those races in any old thing, then it's because you took it upon yourself to give yourself a challenge or didn't select the proper race for your desired class. And if you actually find a race that was better (or just as good) at everything, as the other races, then we'd have a real balance issue on our hands. But, what you described, is an example of balance at work.