Assessment of Life Magic

[Tensu of the moon]

Originally Posted by Jessikha

It does not have to support a specific; it is just a support element. Not defensive support, not offensive support, JUST support. It makes resists last longer, a defensive element, but it also makes life blade last longer, an offensive element. Thus, it is neither defensive or offensive support, it is simply a supportive school of magic.

Not having life doesn't make you any less powerful, having it just makes the game go quicker. Having to cast resists every minute would be annoying to most players, so they train life to make the game more of a convenience.

That is the purpose of the life element.

lets look at the definition of life magic.

magic that has to do with the protection and creation of life.

I repeat:

magic that has to do with the PROTECTION and creation of life.

PROTECTION.

now, summoning is in a sense defensive, since it puts a meat shield between you and whatever foul monster you're fighting. so life blade is the only purely offensive spell in life magic.

by your logic:

water contains water walk, and is thus both defensive and offensive and therefor support.

air contains invisability (very defensive) and fly, and therefore contains both defensive and offensive elements and is therefore support.

fire contains resist fire, and is therefore support.

earth contains offensive spells like sandstorm and petrify so it's not densensive: it's support.

death magic has a summon, so it is support.

and mind and spirit are defenatly support.

combat skills help you kill monsters faster, which makes them both defensive and offensive, and therefore support.

wearing armor increases your stats and helps you live longer and attack more often, and is both defensive and offensive and therefore support.

every skill in wyvern is "support" because every skill helps you in some way. anything that helps you in any way is "support". support is a very broadly defined term. heck, monsters help you gain xp, so monsters are support. see the problem?

however, skills in wyvern can be classified as supporting you primarily defensively or offensively.

water, air, fire, and death are primarily offensive.

earth, life, and spirit are primarily defensive.

mind is pretty balanced between the two.

[Myself]

This is my personal philosophy on schools of magic: It should be viable to make a mage specializing in any school; each specialization should play differently.

So, for example, mind magic meets this, as it is viable and unique (although not easy) to make a mind mage. Death is viable and less unique, while fire, water, and air are viable but not unique at all. Meanwhile, a life specialization may be fairly unique, but is no longer viable. (I'm not sure about Earth.)

I have a halfling training to become a Ranger Conjurer with IIRC 15 or so Life ATM. 17 Life is needed for a Ghast as opposed to 15 Death. However, I decided that was worth it as I get strong healing in the process which is more efficient than mana shield (makes one point of mana worth more than one point of HP).

Now that healing is removed, there's virtually no advantage to keeping all that life rather than untraining and putting the points in Death. Not only do I need less to get a Ghast, but I also get a host of other useful spells along with it (not least of which is a souped-up Magic Whip, to complement his 15 Whips skill).

As far as I can tell, the problem is spam healing, not healing -- if it was healing, then why may 500 HP giants still use Heal? A timer would directly address the spam healing problem. Also, more could be done to make Life a unique and viable path. While reading the first few paragraphs, of the initial posts, I thought about a possible RPG version of the Celestial Armor spell from Heroes of Might and Magic IV, which turned out to be identical to the overhealing idea.

[Salkand]

Originally Posted by Andron

Soo....Salkand is that wierd man that hands out free candy and drives a blacked out van.

Do not miss-quote me again. It's defamation of character as I view it.

All elements have aspects of defense, offense, and support. Some focus on one in particular.

Fire=Offensive
Water=Offensive
Air=Offensive/supportive
Etc.

Life=Supportive.

[Warcow]

Originally Posted by Andron

Soo....Salkand is that wierd man that hands out free candy and drives a blacked out van.

Hahaha! so he is...

Originally Posted by Tensu of the moon

support is a very broadly defined term. heck, monsters help you gain xp, so monsters are support. see the problem?

I like the way you think..

what were we talking about again?

[Hamel]

"Life - Ghasts (Get Death Magic instead)" - Torock

Actually, life at level 17 can get you monopods with summon monster, which may I add uses a much cheaper and lighter reagent then summon undead. Life is also very good in combination with other elements such as mind.

Plus, life gives much longer resists as said before, and thats great for grouping.

Really, if you're going to argue about a element sucking, then go complain about earth. The only good things it has to offer are forestry, strength and enchant weapon/armor.


PS: This thread is silly. =D

[Jessikha]

lets look at the definition of life magic.

magic that has to do with the protection and creation of life.

I repeat:

magic that has to do with the PROTECTION and creation of life.

PROTECTION.

And this definition comes from...? My guess is this the "Magic: The Gathering" definition, as you advertise this in your signature. Regardless of where it came from, this is Wyvern and that "end all be all" definition of life is subject to change and alteration based on how Rhialto (the creator) feels it should be. Only a definition provided by Wyvern on life magic in Wyvern would be accurate.

now, summoning is in a sense defensive...load of nonsense

Well, fireball kills enemies which could hurt you, so it's defensive! And, and, and...

Every example you provided is an interpretation that is ridiculously broad. The reason I say life is simply non-denominational support is because 95% of the spells life magic affects are only timers, i.e. it only increases the length of the spells that associate with it. Regeneration has a set bonus (x1.5 your current healing stat); life blade has a set damage boost (I may be wrong on this one, but I've personally noticed no difference in LB's damage from 0 life to 18 life); resists become more powerful from other elements; the only spell that now shows difference with added life magic (aside from a longer timer) above character level 20 are the summon spells. The summon spells (monster, animal) and the healing spells (when still usable) are the 5% that aren't simply timer boosted.

however, skills in wyvern can be classified as supporting you primarily defensively or offensively.

water, air, fire, and death are primarily offensive.

earth, life, and spirit are primarily defensive.

mind is pretty balanced between the two.

I wasn't saying nothing else wasn't support, I simply said life was non-denominational support. Essentially the same way you call mind "balanced".

Focus: Life is simply non-denominational support because 95% of the spells life magic affects are only timers. Timers are neither offensive or defensive (or both, depending how you look at it).

[Ovrlndnsea]

Originally Posted by Salkand

Do not quote me again. It's defamation of character as I view it.

Oh, come on. Quoting people is a part of friendly forum spirit, most of the time. It was in the case you complained about.

Really, why do we have the quote button if it's "defamation of character" to use it?

[Tensu of the moon]

Originally Posted by Jessikha

And this definition comes from...? My guess is this the "Magic: The Gathering" definition, as you advertise this in your signature. Regardless of where it came from, this is Wyvern and that "end all be all" definition of life is subject to change and alteration based on how Rhialto (the creator) feels it should be. Only a definition provided by Wyvern on life magic in Wyvern would be accurate.

no, it comes from the wyvern player manual. go to the manual and look up the definition for life. there is no "life magic" in magic the gathering. magic is devided by philosophey and not element in magic the gathering.


my use of the support as broad is because support is a broadly definable term.

quoth webster's collage dictionary, tenth edition:

from latin "to carry"
1. to endure bravely or quietly.
2. to promote the intrests or cause of
3. to argue or vote for
4. a bunch of finacal definitions
5. to keep from fainting or yielding
6. to keep something going

so you could say life magic is support because it keeps your resists going, but then water is support because it keeps water walk going, air is support because it keeps invisablity and flight going, mind is support because it keeps charm monster and glimpse going, dodge is support because it keep you going, the evocaton and the other arts are support because it keeps you casting, as is meditation, the healing skill keeps you going, the strengh skill keeps you going by keeping you from becoming encumbered, death ray is support because it keeps you from taking damage by ending a fight quickly and there for keeps you going, so on and so forth. every skill and spell in the game keeps something going in some way: be it a spell, the dungeon crawl, your leveling, or your life. however, they kind of support can be classified as defensive or offensive or something else.

life supports your defensive spells, so it is defensive support, and thereby defensive.

[Salkand]

Originally Posted by Ovrlndnsea

Oh, come on. Quoting people is a part of friendly forum spirit, most of the time. It was in the case you complained about.

Really, why do we have the quote button if it's "defamation of character" to use it?

One, by changing my quote he is insulting me, harassing me and could be spreading rumors all in one miss-quote. (I am also reporting people who miss-quote me when that miss-quote personally effects my character).

And I have had enough of Andron, who has continually harassed me.

[Ovrlndnsea]

Originally Posted by Salkand

One, by changing my quote he is insulting me, harassing me and could be spreading rumors all in one miss-quote. (I am also reporting people who miss-quote me when that miss-quote personally effects my character).

And I have had enough of Andron, who has been continually harassed by me.

I seriously doubt that rumors will be spread by light-hearted joking. At least, what appears to be light-hearted joking. If he meant to harass, he sure did a good job of making it look perfectly innocent.
Sometimes, you take this forum WAY too seriously.

And I feel sorry for Andron. You should quit harassing him.

[/offtopic]

Originally Posted by Torock

One: Add "(Level of Life Magic - 8)" to the formula for the max level of heals. This makes no changes to the effects of the healing nerf other than allowing people with varying levels of Life Magic to maintain the ability to use their heals.

Two: "Overhealing" - Allow healing spells to increase the target's life over maximum by an amount. The maximum amount of overhealing would be something like: the maximum amount of healing your heal is capable of.

So, for example, if you have 100 HP and can heal for a max of 45 with Major Heal - then your maximum HP when overhealed is 145. If you can heal for 15 with minor heal - then the spell would have no effect until you drop below 115 HP.

This would keep the overall encouragement of graduating to higher level heals while allowing heals to be somewhat closer to the sustaining power of mana shield.

Three: Overhealing would be overkill if spamming was still an issue - I personally think incantation is the root of the heal spamming problem and its effects should be capped for certain spells. Part three would adress being able to endlessly spam heals in some way. Once addressed, parts one and two would be balanced.

1: Ick. Say I get to level 32. I would then have to spend 20 skill points to keep major healing. Since power can be roughly estimated by number of skill points, I would be as powerful as an L27 if human/halfling or L25 if not. In other words, this doesn't work at all.
2: Perhaps... but I'm not going to spend a whole skill point to get one more hp, are you? BTW, the formulas for heal amounts are:
minor: 2+life+1d10
medium 11+life+1d15
major: 21+life+1d30
3: That's my favorite solution, but does this affect anything? The WIZARDS seem to prefer a different solution than R's, but that didn't affect it.

[Jessikha]

(Originally posted by myself in response to an earlier post of yours)
Well, fireball kills enemies which could hurt you, so it's defensive! And, and, and...

(Tensu)
so you could say life magic is support because it keeps your resists going, but then water is support because it keeps water walk going, air is support because it keeps invisablity and flight going, mind is support because it keeps charm monster and glimpse going, dodge is support because it keep you going, the evocaton and the other arts are support because it keeps you casting, as is meditation, the healing skill keeps you going, the strengh skill keeps you going by keeping you from becoming encumbered, death ray is support because it keeps you from taking damage by ending a fight quickly and there for keeps you going, so on and so forth. every skill and spell in the game keeps something going in some way: be it a spell, the dungeon crawl, your leveling, or your life. however, they kind of support can be classified as defensive or offensive or something else.

This is exactly what I told you not to do; broaden something to the point of absurdity.

I could say without life, none of us would be alive in the game and if we're not alive we would not be able to attack, so to give us life is to allow us to attack, thus it must be offensive!

Do you see why that is a ridiculous argument? The above sentence resembles your argument.

(Tensu)
my use of the support as broad is because support is a broadly definable term.

This is an opinion. Specifically, your opinion. As I've said several times, one may look at life as being non denominational support, or dual support (it is essentially the same thing here). I say this because it has an even balance of "defensive" support spells and "offensive" support spells. It also is heavily used for timers, which simply increase the duration of a spell. The spell's other effects are irrelevant in regards to life, as life's only influence is the timer increase. Timer = Neutral = Non-denominational This is my chain of logic, as clearly explained as possible.

You may consider timer = neutral to be my opinion, and in a sense it is. However, I support my claim as clearly as possible, and without diverging into ridiculously broad horizons. Looking only at a timer, what would you call it? Not the resist <element> part of the spell, JUST the timer. What is a timer's affiliation, defensive or offensive? It would depend on the context of the spell; however, that wouldn't be unadulterated life. Unadulterated life is composed in majority of timers, which in a pure sense, are neutral.

I'm also willing to compromise and refer to life as a "convenience" classification of magic. As a note, all classifications refer to the majority of the effects the element has on its spells. Not all spells, just a majority.

Here's the definition of life I see in the player's manual:

(Wyvern Player's Manua)
The Element Life is used in spells of healing and peace.

Well, peace refers to spells such as create food (unrelated/neutral), and healing is no longer affected above level 20, thus the definition is hardly applicable anymore. Therefore, the original defensive support argument is moot (the original being that healing made it defensive above level 20). As for your argument, which I have trouble discerning from your posts (aside from "Life is defensive support, here's some extremely vague support"), I am simply going to give up on trying to convince you if you still haven't changed your opinion.

I have no desire to continue this argument, as it seems to have no end. If you are adamant about continuing it, please do so in PM's, as we're deterring from the main subject of the thread.

[Tensu of the moon]

I'd be happy to take this to PMs, but first, I want to respond one more time on the board. because if you get to attack me one more time, it's only fair I get to defend myself one more time. besides, we are not de-railing the thread. this is a topic about the assesment of life magic, and we are assesing life magic.

Originally Posted by wyvern player's manuel, spell system, elements of magic

5. life magic. spells that have to do with protection or life

there you have it.

the spell lfe magic is supporting is a defensive spell. thus life is defensive support. I don't know what makes you think life has as many offensive spells as defensive ones. let's compare:

defensive:
resist fire, water, air, magic, petrify, confusion, paralasis, fear,
regeneration

offensive:
life blade

last time I checked 9>1.

and for the last time, I use the word support in a broad sense because support is a broad word. support is in the same boat as nature. almost everything can be defined as supporting something. therefore, it is stupid to say something is "just support", because that could mean anything. rather, we say what it supports. and life magic supports your defensive spells as per definition #6, and is therefore defensive. thus life is not non-denominational. if it is your opinion that life is non-denominational you can maintain that and argue it as adamently as you like. but you'll still be wrong and I'll still be right.

[Jessikha]

Originally Posted by Tensu of the moon

I'd be happy to take this to PMs, but first, I want to respond one more time on the board. because if you get to attack me one more time, it's only fair I get to defend myself one more time. besides, we are not de-railing the thread. this is a topic about the assesment of life magic, and we are assesing life magic.



there you have it.

the spell lfe magic is supporting is a defensive spell. thus life is defensive support. I don't know what makes you think life has as many offensive spells as defensive ones. let's compare:

defensive:
resist fire, water, air, magic, petrify, confusion, paralasis, fear,
regeneration

offensive:
life blade

last time I checked 9>1.

and for the last time, I use the word support in a broad sense because support is a broad word. support is in the same boat as nature. almost everything can be defined as supporting something. therefore, it is stupid to say something is "just support", because that could mean anything. rather, we say what it supports. and life magic supports your defensive spells as per definition #6, and is therefore defensive. thus life is not non-denominational. if it is your opinion that life is non-denominational you can maintain that and argue it as adamently as you like. but you'll still be wrong and I'll still be right.

Don't even post if you aren't going to read what I posted. Every "point" you just made was addressed in my last post, which you obviously didn't read or didn't understand. PM me if you still see a flaw in my previous post.

[Tensu of the moon]

every "adress" you made was just systematicly debunked. I have explained quite clearly that you are wrong and why you are wrong, and all you have responded with is "don't se the word support properly" and "stop using logic, my opinion is law". it has become very clear to me that you do not know what you're talking about. I'm not angry, but you do need to stop talking.

[Jessikha]

The spell's other effects are irrelevant in regards to life, as life's only influence is the timer increase. Timer = Neutral = Non-denominational

For the last time; life's only effect on ~95% of the spells it has a say in only boost the length of a spell. Life's only purpose on a whole is to boost the length of the spell, not increase fire resistance/power of life blade/etc.

Life only affects the timer.
Life only affects the timer.
Life only affects the timer.

The timer is life's purpose; this, IN MY EYES, is non-denominational (or dual) support.

If you want to try and argue that the timer is defensive support, go ahead. At this point I'm pretty sure you will never stop arguing it (or give logical support).

I will ONLY respond to your next post if you "adress" the following issue:

- Life only affects the timer ~95% of the time, and a timer is not defensive or offensive (or is both, however you want to word it), thus life is just support.

(Note: Before the healing nerf, life would be defensive because healing worked. I'm arguing of its neutrality now because of lack of said healing spells at level 20. It should be the way you argue it to be, but recent nerfs cause it to fall short above level 20).

[thepixie]

What Jessikha wrote above made sense.

I have two questions:
1) When a person casts resists on someone else, relogs, and then dies, would the resists fall?
2) For the water-breathing spell, do both the elements (water and air) prolong the resist?

[Jessikha]

Originally Posted by thepixie

What Jessikha wrote above made sense.

I have two questions:
1) When a person casts resists on someone else, relogs, and then dies, would the resists fall?
2) For the water-breathing spell, do both the elements (water and air) prolong the resist?

1) I think that resists stay on someone until they wear off. I don't think death in any way (other than the person with the resists cast on them) would affect the resists. Of course, I could be wrong, I've never tested this.

2) I know air increases duration, and I assume water does too. Honestly, what else could water do for the spell?

[themadhobo]

This argument is funny. What difference does it make if life is defensive support, or general support? Either way its not a main element which makes it secondary and thus, less important roleplaywise. Same goes with death, thats why death mages are quite unique, as would be life mages.

Given, life magic has next to no point in being in the game at the moment, as it would make more sense for enchantment to affect the length of an enchantment spell. Life needs some new spell that is effective in some way to make it part of a proper RPG. Any game Ive played had life referring to survival, and death to killing things in cruel ways. Death seems to be down pat, but life needs to be spruced up. I would propose some kind of wave style healing spell that would allow players to heal party members. That might make the paladins guild a bit more exciting and creating healing classes so creating nigh invincible characters is no longer a must.

[Crier]

No, resists, most of them are dispelled if the caster dies, I know they still work if the caster logs, but I don't know if the cast logs then reconnects and dies...I would have to look into that.

[Iro]

Originally Posted by Salkand

I am giving you good feedback

No, no you're not.

Also, posting about something in a thread you haven't even read just makes you look ignorant.