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  #21  
Old 09-22-2008, 03:23 AM
AlphaZealot AlphaZealot is offline
 

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Default Outsiders Perspective

I was first introduced to Wyvern about 8 months ago by someone (who shall remain nameless) that is very close to my heart. Since then I've sporadically given the game a try here and there but it simply hasn't taken.

The problem with Wyvern seems to be, as some have already touched on, multi-pronged. For any gaming community to thrive there are some fundamental elements that must occur for its growth and ultimate survival.

Wyvern-It's Strengths and What's Wrong with Them

From an outsiders perspective there seems to be a few key areas that Wyvern excels at. One of the most intriguing is that all the maps and characters are essentially player made. This is probably the corner-stone of what makes Wyvern so unique, it holds some of the best pixel art that can found on the internet. The problem is someone new like me, who has an interest in pixel art, has no easy way to figure out how to get started and start contributing, or to find out who to talk to for advice, critiques, or guidance. Pixel art appeals to an entirely different realm of person who may not be that interested the MMORPG genre, but would still like to put their creative skills to use (think of what makes Spore so successful, as a game).

After that, and I think probably the least noted so far in this thread, is that Wyvern is a small, tight knit community. Being known as a place where friendships are made, player's personalities are known, and ultimately one has a sense of community should be one of Wyvern's greatest strengths. Instead, from my experiences in the chat and from some of the comments I've seen in this thread, players are often snobbish, elitist, and generally distasteful. This is, obviously, a huge turn off. Worse though is that the leaders (Wizards) in the world of Wyvern sometimes perpetuate this mentality. A general rule of thumb in every gaming community I've been a part of is that those with power must show and adhere to the highest standards of social grace. If talking down to new members by wizards is observed then soon the mentality of what is acceptable practice changes for all members.

The next biggest strength for Wyvern, and one that has garnered consistently returning users in the past, is the the PvP arena. Regardless of who is playing, if enough time is dedicated to Wyvern eventually players will run out of things to do and will have progressed so high in level that challenges are few and far between (or that the ones that exist are simply not worth doing). PvP though is a different ballpark, it allows the player creative freedom and offers the biggest challenge anyone will ever face: fighting another person who is actively trying to beat you. PvP players embody a competitive spirit, and the type of people that love competition also like seeing leader boards, stat tracking. Balance tweaks to a game such as this should be actively made in conjunction with the observation and opinions of the top players-they are using the product and they likely know it best. Most of all, getting the players input before making changes eases the overall transition process.

Where to Go to From Here
  • Before making further changes that effect PvP, or the game as a whole, actively speak with those who both play it the most and can articulate their thoughts.
  • Be kind to new members. Filtering in a consistent stream of new members is the key, both to statistical growth (or at least remaining flat), and to building the Wyvern community.
  • Lead by example. If you are a wizard, realize a responsibility has been thrust upon you to help new members and to keep a cool head, even in the face of overwhelming annoying, redundant, you've answer 300 times questions.
  • Someone from the community create guides for specific things that a new user may be interested in but would also have no idea where to look. Guides for everything from pixel art to RDing to PvP would all help a new user become acquainted with both the members of the Wyvern community and the facets of Wyvern that are the most interesting. If you remember the struggles you faced when first joining the site, then create a guide to help new players find their way in Wyvern and ease their transition. Tips and tricks.
  • Update older areas.
  • Leader boards. Tournaments. Promote the spirit of competition. Make balance tweaks in accordance with demand and information from the players who know the game best.
  • Some sort of front page website that keeps track of the news within the community. It could be a hefty task, but it also bring exposure and a cemented area where users can go outside the game to learn and see who is doing what in the community.
Examples from my Smash Background

The competitive Smash community, which I'm a part of, has had its fair share of doomsday scenarios and lulls in traffic. Back in its infancy the community was small, often teetering on extinction. However being small turned out to be its greatest strength, because from there, with healthy guidance from some of the leaders in the community, players started to reach out to new members. People would hold open "Smashfests" and new players were welcomed with open arms. Soon, those new players became consistent faces within the community and further spurned interest in the game on a competitive level. Tournaments would be held, then afterwards the people who ran the tournaments would explain what they did, how they did, and how YOU could do it in your area. Through this, the number of tournaments spread.

More recently, after Brawl was released, I did some work with a site that ran an online Brawl ladder. In August the sites traffic had remained flat and they needed a spark. The solution? A series of rewards for the players when the Summer Ladder finished, and more rewards for the Fall Ladder that started in September. On top of that was consistent, weekly coverage of the top 32 players. The result? At the end of the August and beginning of September the site had a 50% increase in traffic, and because there is consistent coverage that level of traffic has remained steady. The players keep coming back because they want to improve, because they have something to work for, and because they are filled with a consistent spirit of competition. (Imagine starting a ladder ranking for PvP Wyvern somehow).

The point of this example from a different community is that a lot can be done starting from the bottom to the top (instead of relying on a top-down model), with every individual contributing what they can to make the experience in Wyvern (or any community) better for the whole. Identify what strengths you have and try to fill a gap, you don't have to be a wizard to be someone who is looked up to or who helps other members.

I'm a novice in the world of Wyvern, so maybe everything I just said will be taken with a grain of salt, but as I mentioned in the beginning, this is just how I perceive things from the outside, looking in. Ultimately it's people from similar perspectives that make up the new users of the game.
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Last edited by AlphaZealot : 09-22-2008 at 03:44 AM.
  #22  
Old 09-22-2008, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaZealot View Post
The problem is someone new like me, who has an interest in pixel art, has no easy way to figure out how to get started and start contributing, or to find out who to talk to for advice, critiques, or guidance.
Just fyi, all you had to do was ask any wizard and they would've told you that Teshuvah and I handle player submitted artwork and wizard applications. So in-game mailing either one of us is the way to go.

Quote:
Worse though is that the leaders (Wizards) in the world of Wyvern sometimes perpetuate this mentality.
We (the wizards) are always friendly with new players and go out of our way to help them while setting a standard for other players to follow who would otherwise fall into the "do the tutorial and shut up mentally" (something we have always openly discouraged).

Aside from that, I'd assume what you're talking about is the observation that we sometimes roleplay as our wizard characters which are usually very different from our real personalities (I'll let you in on a secret - Binyamin is really a sweetheart and I don't like to eat people). When doing so we tend to just include the ones who get what we're doing and I, personally, have always had a policy that if it bothers anyone they should make it clear to me that it not only does, but that they are serious so that I know not to continue to include them in the future (I seek out the ones who get it and are able to continue to banter back in-character anyway). Btw, we do not handle adminstrative matters in-character and since they are things we keep as private as possible one probably has no idea how we handle those situations unless they, personally, have gotten into trouble.

Quote:
Before making further changes that effect PvP, or the game as a whole, actively speak with those who both play it the most and can articulate their thoughts.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. We generally know if players are going to like something or not and why they will feel a certain way about it. If we add something that is widely unliked it's because we are trying to get the game in shape for the type of players we want to attract once the game is out of beta testing. Right now a lot of people that have come here do not get that they are beta testing the game for us and as a result they think that the type of playing, (that attracted them in the first place) which is unbalanced/unfinished, is how it should always be. As a result they do not care that there is clear vision for post balance Wyvern that we are trying to achieve and have no interest in doing anything but complaining when we just to let them in on these things ahead of time. So, in the end, the type of system you described just isn't appropriate for a game that is up and running only to get people to help us test it as we go along. If this is a deal breaker for anyone, sorry, but this is not going to change.

Quote:
Update older areas.
I don't know if you noticed but Teshuvah and I have done extensive work to get old areas updated over the last few years.
  #23  
Old 09-22-2008, 10:42 AM
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I started playing wyvern in early 02, my oldest char that I didn't delete, Hawkblade, was once the number 12 player in all of wyvern at the massive level of 20.

In all my years off playing wyvern I have seen a lot of changes. When I first started there was not a max value when you sold to a store, you just got like 50% of the value or whatever, it was awesome, I was soooo rich. There were cool maps like zoos just full of highlevel monsters that were trapped in tiny cages that you could blast and leveling was easy, I thought the game was great.

A couple years later after life settled down and I could start playing again everything had changed, and most of them I thought were so terrible. My vault had been wipped out and all the items were in a bag in my inventory, I couldn't find a zoo, and the guild I was in actually had negatives. But now I have adapted and still enjoy the game.

Overall I would have to say that the main reason that most of the population is down is because of real life priorities. A lot of our once hardcore players have either; jobs, school, college, or have joined the armed forces. That is a large part of it im sure. Also we lost a few hardcore players due to some banning recently, which was deserved but still sadening.

The second reason would be that they got their panties in a wad about the healing nerf. Lots of players that I knew well had worked long and hard to get thier chars to high levels to be almost invincible and were all mad when the healing nerf destroyed thier invincibility. It didn't bother me at all because I had just learned about spam healing, I started playing before people even needed to spam heal so never really used it.

My only two causes of dissatisfaction currently are, no score lists, and im still not any good at this game...But that is not enough to deter me from playing.

P.S. If anyone read all of that garbage, sorry...
  #24  
Old 09-22-2008, 11:07 AM
AlphaZealot AlphaZealot is offline
 

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Quote:
So, in the end, the type of system you described just isn't appropriate for a game that is up and running only to get people to help us test it as we go along.
Doesn't beta testing rely on the input of the users? Which is exactly the system I'm describing.

Arilou, overall I see what you are saying, as I said I'm a total novice in the world of Wyvern, there are many things I don't understand, what I said is just the impression I see from the things I read and my limited experiences in the game.

What would be wrong with having score lists/ranking/whatever to keep track of how players stack up with each other/their progression through the game/other neat facets of Wyvern?
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaZealot View Post
Doesn't beta testing rely on the input of the users? Which is exactly the system I'm describing.
Yes, but in a different way. You described a game where the creators discuss changes with players in advance and include them in the game design process by getting their opinions about how they feel just based on the descriptions of the change. But as a beta game we want people to just test active content and give us their feedback based on that hands on testing. We're going to include whatever we want no matter how players feel about it since, as I said, we have a clear vision that we are working towards. So including players ahead of time anyway would be a farce and we've been there before - It's always mindless complaining about anything which would change the status quo and as I said we're experienced enough to predict how players would react by now anyway.

Quote:
What would be wrong with having score lists/ranking/whatever to keep track of how players stack up with each other/their progression through the game/other neat facets of Wyvern?
Nothing is wrong with that and nobody said otherwise. The score lists are broken right now. Rhialto has tried several times to fix them over the last couple of years and had even enlisted another arch wizard at one point. However, it's not an easy fix and Rhialto isn't all that active so he doesn't have a lot of time to try. Those are the only reasons the score lists are not operating normally right now. One of the game's goals is to provide an environment for the four classes of gamers (achiever, explorer, killer, and socializer) to flourish as much as possible and various forms of score lists serve the achiever class. We're very much aware of the effect on the playerbase that the bugged score lists have and we want to see it operating normally again as soon as Humanly possible.
  #26  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:25 PM
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We're very much aware of the effect on the playerbase that the bugged score lists have and we want to see it operating normally again as soon as Humanly possible.


Wizardly imo
  #27  
Old 09-23-2008, 06:17 PM
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On the plus side, only 20-ish people on at any one time means less chances that the map you're exploring has already been cleared out.

Overall, Wyvern still beats the pants off any other game out there. People who leave are fooling themselves. Of course, I'm an explorer-type, and Wyvern easily satisfies me on that score.
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  #28  
Old 09-23-2008, 06:57 PM
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Less players seems to have messed with a lot of game aspects. I remember when there use to be 7+ Pkers online, now we are lucky to get 3.
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  #29  
Old 09-25-2008, 02:02 PM
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Remember that games don't exist forever. Games that once were very popular just get beaten by new ones in the genre.
  #30  
Old 09-27-2008, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowlight View Post
Scores, this might just be a personal thing for me but I really liked climbing up the list checking the different categorizes to see how I had progressed. Sadly I can't do much more score wise, and it doesn't help that the autoupdate is broke.
The score lists have once again been updated manually and an attempt is going to made to do this a few more times in the near future. I'm not going to make any promises and I'd appreciate if you don't mimic the "are we there yet" annoyance by constantly asking us when, but check back in about a week or so. With any luck there will be another manual update then.

The problem of them not working properly is high on our list of things that need to be fixed, but as I've mentioned before it's complicated so we'll see what happens.
  #31  
Old 09-28-2008, 12:09 PM
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Thanks alot, Arilou .
  #32  
Old 09-29-2008, 03:42 PM
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Problem

Wyvern's gotten much harder lol

Back in the day, when tons of people used to play wyvern, things weren't so hard.

it was easy to make money, and it was rather easy to train.

all in all, everything was just much easier back in the day. whether or not that's the way things were meant to be, the fact that things were easier didn't discourage new players. before i got banned i noticed that for the most part, there were alot of high levels, and alot of low levels. not too many in between. there could be multiple reasons for this but i think the spam healing nerf has something to do with it.


don't get be wrong, i'm not knocking the way wyvern works these days -- just trying to give a bit of an explanation without getting too complicated. just simply not as easy for new players to really get going, so they stop.
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Last edited by Xae : 09-29-2008 at 03:45 PM.
  #33  
Old 09-30-2008, 01:46 AM
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So maybe we need more areas in general. We need more areas for the level 1-24 players so that they can train without getting overstocked, and areas for 25+ to prevent them from getting bored. . .

Unfortunately this all requires more wizards, which we are short on. Those players willing to become wizards have either No talent, can't use the map editor because of their computer (HAHA you mac users, I can access a dell at any time!) Or are considered too immature by the wizards to be a wizard (that would be me).
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  #34  
Old 09-30-2008, 06:11 AM
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The life of a mid-level player hasn't really changed what with them still being able to spam heal. This reminds me of people complaining that kobolds were killing them and lower level players weren't going to be able make it anymore after the enchant bug was fixed. However, it only had an impact on a small portion of the playerbase and similarly, the spam healing nerf only majorly impacts the level 20+ crowd.
  #35  
Old 09-30-2008, 04:17 PM
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Hmm, maybe instead of making more areas for level 20+ we would make the game even harder for them. Harder monsters and more restrictions about using low levels *blank*

I know I'll be unpopular with that one.
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  #36  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:02 AM
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Lets get the current balance issues fixed first. Armor; Healing; Random dungeons, need I go on?

As long as these aren't fixed the population will mainly consist of high level characters as it is far too easy to get to high levels. A healthy population should have most characters in middle levels. (10-20)
  #37  
Old 10-01-2008, 11:58 AM
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You know what would make it really cool for higher levels. If there were a couple races or guilds you can choose from after you hit level 25, but you have to restart your character to access them. I wont bother elaborating the idea because you can all imagine it the way you would like it - if you do.
  #38  
Old 10-01-2008, 01:00 PM
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Arilou once mentioned the ability to do that for sub-classes.

Meaning warewolfs, liches, etc.
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  #39  
Old 10-02-2008, 12:39 AM
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I personally think that the reason a lot of people left was because Janica's Random LQs stopped working. I know of tons of hardcore players who have told me that those were their favorite part of the game, because they could just sit in the AH chat it up and wait for the LQ to pop up and test their skills on it.
  #40  
Old 10-03-2008, 01:39 AM
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Ok, even though the wizards have been cruel to poor ol salky and banished him from using the suggestion boards. I have signed up for a game forum and I made a post about wyvern, with a link to the site. Your welcome.
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