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Suggestions Post any suggestions for new Wyvern content here that is too complicated to explain in the idea log or that you want to first get feedback on from other players.

 
 
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  #21  
Old 03-15-2011, 01:08 AM
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I agree with Frosten, you should be able to get to death ray immunity. Spending money on all that armor and sacrificing resists in other areas to still get death rayed at least 1 in 10 times is ridiculous.

You would lose enhanced protection ring if you wanted immunity, and resists in other areas which would still make all boss monsters feared.

Its just not fun dying to random chance in any game. No one likes that. And if the random chance factor is just there so the game is harder, then make it harder in other areas but please leave out the "You fight this monster, no matter how good you are, you will still die 10-20% of the time with full death pro." That is not a fun aspect, and games are suppose to be fun. It has made me personally just never go around monsters with death ray because it is not worth it. Which cuts out half of the game.
  #22  
Old 03-15-2011, 01:19 AM
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I agree with what Bullfrogz is saying, death ray is not adding to the challenge of the game, it is just a cheap instant kill spell. Going up against something like that is not fun at all. I have been killed by it even with 90% resistance, so the resists are not that great. The idea of running around the monster you are fighting is not always very effective either. I think that death ray should be weakened and maybe increase the strength of other spells to compensate for it?

I know that probably isn't going to happen and I probably know what response this is going to get, but I just wanted to add my two cent.
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  #23  
Old 03-15-2011, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullfrogz View Post
I agree with Frosten, you should be able to get to death ray immunity. Spending money on all that armor and sacrificing resists in other areas to still get death rayed at least 1 in 10 times is ridiculous.
If it's so ridiculous to spend all that money on armor that doesn't give you immunity to death... don't spend all that money. The armor is what it is and in no way claims to provide immunity. So, if that causes you to feel as if the armor is not worth it, buy something else.

Quote:
Its just not fun dying to random chance in any game. No one likes that. And if the random chance factor is just there so the game is harder, then make it harder in other areas but please leave out the "You fight this monster, no matter how good you are, you will still die 10-20% of the time with full death pro." That is not a fun aspect, and games are suppose to be fun. It has made me personally just never go around monsters with death ray because it is not worth it. Which cuts out half of the game.
The idea is for you to learn which monsters cast death ray and use other tactics than brute forcing them. Ideally, you want to remain at a distance so that you have plenty of time to see a death ray coming and counter it by simply dodging aside. This is the purpose of death ray - To force you to remain at a distance and to be quick on your feet. Mages and archers who cannot manage this need to practice their dodging skills and meleers who insist on using the run around the monster tactic need to either stop doing that just because it's the fastest way to kill the monster or deal with the fact that they're putting themselves at risk of instantly dying while doing it. Instead they need to utilize things like hurled weapons, (which a lot of melee characters now have bonuses in) mage/archer teammates, or summons. In fact, everyone could benefit from making sure that they have access to summons. You get instant access to a disposable teammate who will take the focus off of you and allow you to hide in a corner while it fights for you or it will allow you to stand at a safe distance while sniping at a distracted foe.

The problem is that people are lazy and they just want to grind their way through sections of the game. So they just feel that it is a waste of their time unless they are charging at everything in their path. The idea behind things like death ray is to slow you down and force you to use creative methods for advancing. I take it, though, that you only care about the half of the game that lets you mindlessly grind and since there are places in the game where you can do that, you don't want to learn to utilize these slower tactics. But that's why half of the game needs updating.
  #24  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
If it's so ridiculous to spend all that money on armor that doesn't give you immunity to death... don't spend all that money. The armor is what it is and in no way claims to provide immunity. So, if that causes you to feel as if the armor is not worth it, buy something else.

The idea is for you to learn which monsters cast death ray and use other tactics than brute forcing them. Ideally, you want to remain at a distance so that you have plenty of time to see a death ray coming and counter it by simply dodging aside. This is the purpose of death ray - To force you to remain at a distance and to be quick on your feet. Mages and archers who cannot manage this need to practice their dodging skills and meleers who insist on using the run around the monster tactic need to either stop doing that just because it's the fastest way to kill the monster or deal with the fact that they're putting themselves at risk of instantly dying while doing it. Instead they need to utilize things like hurled weapons, (which a lot of melee characters now have bonuses in) mage/archer teammates, or summons. In fact, everyone could benefit from making sure that they have access to summons. You get instant access to a disposable teammate who will take the focus off of you and allow you to hide in a corner while it fights for you or it will allow you to stand at a safe distance while sniping at a distracted foe.

The problem is that people are lazy and they just want to grind their way through sections of the game. So they just feel that it is a waste of their time unless they are charging at everything in their path. The idea behind things like death ray is to slow you down and force you to use creative methods for advancing. I take it, though, that you only care about the half of the game that lets you mindlessly grind and since there are places in the game where you can do that, you don't want to learn to utilize these slower tactics. But that's why half of the game needs updating.
Wow, very insightful post.

I am personally one of those that 'enjoys' grinding, but not without a challenge involved. When grinding means simply killing monsters mindlessly with no thought or strategy involved, to be blunt, that bores the heck out of me. In retrospect - this is most likely why I enjoy playing monks so much. Their playstyle, by default, requires one to find a creative approach to problems rather than having a one-size-fits-all solution, and simply bashing one's way through monsters for indefinite periods of time, ultimately resulting in leveling with minimal effort.

I'm definitely going to experiment with some more builds that utilize/have bonuses in secondary weapon skills. The only issue I see is that without a high level of points in those skills, it would take a very long time to kill a reaper with, say, hurled weapons. The damage rate is simply too low, and the mere number of those weapons one would have to carry seems very high for how useful they'd be in actuality. Same thing goes with summons on a typical melee character. It might work, but you're going to be there a while. Unless somehow Summon Golem brings forth a diamond golem with 5 earth magic, and I'm just completely oblivious to this fact. But I still see the usefulness there, if not solely for other reasons I'll leave unstated.

Though more recently, I've been RDing quite a bit more, and most times I do exactly what you've suggested here - bring an archer and a mage along - and I do extremely well. So maybe players should be doing more grouping, and realize the game is becoming a bit more group-oriented than some would like to admit. Which, if I remember correctly, was the purpose behind adding more d-ray monsters into RDs and such.
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Last edited by Kama : 03-15-2011 at 05:26 AM.
  #25  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kama View Post
The only issue I see is that without a high level of points in those skills, it would take a very long time to kill a reaper with, say, hurled weapons. The damage rate is simply too low, and the mere number of those weapons one would have to carry seems very high for how useful they'd be in actuality.
For Reapers, I'd recommend getting yourself a good rod and using its magic to attack it from a distance.

Quote:
Same thing goes with summons on a typical melee character. It might work, but you're going to be there a while. Unless somehow Summon Golem brings forth a diamond golem with 5 earth magic, and I'm just completely oblivious to this fact. But I still see the usefulness there, if not solely for other reasons I'll leave unstated.
What you want to do is use the summon to distract the Reaper while you support it from a distance. A good way to do this is with a rod of firebolt as you can use it to hit the Reaper without also hitting and angering/destroying your summon.
  #26  
Old 03-15-2011, 02:38 PM
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So rak cavies should spend a ton of cash on wands or use -2 hurled? or rely on a mage at all times? >.>
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  #27  
Old 03-15-2011, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Frosten View Post
So rak cavies should spend a ton of cash on wands or use -2 hurled? or rely on a mage at all times? >.>
For one or two monsters that have death ray? Wouldn't be a ton of cash to use the ones you find instead of selling them etc. A rod has 100s of charges, would last for many reapers. Summons, rods, wands, lots of options including a mage if you want to RD.

This is where I'd repeat everything Arilou already said, so....

Or as Arilou said, <repeats the entire thing so Frosten reads it this time>, or
don't RD and find training areas that are better for your skill set.

The whole premise that you should be able to get immunity to death ray so you can grind/ RD constantly by yourself is the problem. Read what Arilou said 3 or 4 times and see if that helps.
  #28  
Old 03-15-2011, 10:00 PM
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So my only question then is about going down the stairs on an RD, and immediately getting killed by death ray. That's no fun, basically get automatically assaulted by monsters the second you enter a map. What are we supposed to do in that situation? As far as I can see, there is no avoiding it long enough to use either the summon/wand/rod technique, and when bringing along a mage, oft they're the one that gets instakilled - and in most cases, bam, RD over.
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Last edited by Kama : 03-15-2011 at 10:32 PM.
  #29  
Old 03-15-2011, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah
A rod has 100s of charges, would last for many reapers.
A rod is real hard to use with neg arts >.> I think I tried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kama
So my only question then is about going down the stairs on an RD, and immediately getting killed by death ray. That's no fun, basically get automatically assaulted by monsters the second you enter a map. What are we supposed to do in that situation? As far as I can see, there is no avoiding it long enough to use either the summon/wand/rod technique, and when bringing along a mage, oft they're the one that gets instakilled - and in most cases, bam, RD over.
Buy elvish armor sneaking=win when it comes to RD stairs.
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  #30  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Crier View Post
A rod is real hard to use with neg arts >.> I think I tried.


Buy elvish armor sneaking=win when it comes to RD stairs.
Really? Huh. Well when you're one square away, I dun think it matters that much. And I've maxed my sneaking skill from elvish items. I'm pretty sure I only have one slot I can use for that = elven cloak of agil+10.

And indeed, a rod is very hard to use with neg arts. I've tried as well, it drains most of my mana.
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  #31  
Old 03-16-2011, 02:13 AM
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Sneaking has nothing to do with proximity. The idea behind it is that all monsters are asleep by default and when you enter a map and move around in it, there's a chance you will wake them up. Sneaking reduces that chance.

Anyway, those monster filled stair rooms aren't an intended design. You can figure that out fairly easily by reading our quest and area guidelines about trying to avoid creating scenarios where players instantly die upon entering a map. As such, we have had many discussions about what needs to be done for when we get around to that random dungeon overhaul. In the meantime, I recommend grouping with a stupid Giant and using it as fodder.
  #32  
Old 03-16-2011, 03:56 AM
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Really? Huh. Well when you're one square away, I dun think it matters that much. And I've maxed my sneaking skill from elvish items. I'm pretty sure I only have one slot I can use for that = elven cloak of agil+10.
If you can wear them elven boots are +2 sneaking. I think most of the time I have +3 or 4 sneaking and it does help a bit with stairs and exiting portable holes when there are bad monsters about.
  #33  
Old 03-16-2011, 09:33 AM
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If you can wear them elven boots are +2 sneaking. I think most of the time I have +3 or 4 sneaking and it does help a bit with stairs and exiting portable holes when there are bad monsters about.
I'm a monk so boots aren't an option. The couple points from my cloak are all that I have access too, basically. I'm sure it makes a difference, but I've worn elven items so long I don't even notice it anymore.


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  #34  
Old 03-16-2011, 11:26 AM
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About death ray...

Okay, it's a very reasonable point that allowing players to kill everything with brute force is a bad thing. Naturally you will want situations where more teamwork is recommended if the overall objective is to make people work together more.

However, I believe there are better ways to force tactics onto players. And in my opinion, death ray is a bad method to do so. There are various other ways like blink/teleport shield, dark wisps, all element recoil, insanity and so on but instead you opted for death ray. Which comes off as an extreme and uncreative way to deter people from brute forcing the monster.

Why do i say this? Because there are monsters out there which are actually ridiculously weak but they come with death ray and thus carry danger even if fully prepared to deal with it. Things like death rats, ak raks and pirate wizards which are practically made to abuse the fact that players cannot be immune to ray.

Point being, death ray is becoming more and more common as things like reapers and beholders appear in other maps. And killing them always comes with the risk of having a game over button pressed on you.

Now, the reason why death ray exists is supposedly to stop people from brute forcing all of the monsters and adapt to teamwork for efficient ways to clear maps or come up with some method to kill it at a distance.

Allow me to kindly visualize what the situation is now then.

Melees (solo) can:
  1. Bite the bullet and go for the kill
  2. Run behind a mage/archer and wait for them to kill
  3. Adapt the method of using wands/rods/hurling
  4. Avoid all monsters capable of using death ray

The first option is the usual brute force, if we had to compare, it would be like playing Russian roulette every single fight. Only there aren't much rewards to be obtained from playing it most of the time.

The second option is to run behind a mage/archer and let them kill (yes, the supposed-to-be-tank melee running behind a mage/archer) or have a summoner use summons to distract as you have mentioned. That usually involves the summoner running up instead however.

The third option makes sense, but it is currently far from practical. It's about as practical as telling a mage to try and melee things to death if they can't harm it with their magic. In the case of hurling, we lack efficient ways to gather large amounts of ammunition. I recall asking the reason why and I was told that it is because hurling is a sub weapon skill and that we are supposed to be throwing spears at monsters.

Obviously, even picking up a rock and throwing it would likely be more efficient than using spears unless you seriously think people can kill things like reapers within a few spears. Meanwhile for other ammunition we basically only have rocks. Unlike archer ammunition, there is no "hurling store" and if we want to gather hurling ammunition, we need to go through weapon stores and hope to gather 100 or 200 in an entire run, just to use most of them on a single monster.

In the case of rods/wands, we have the great problem that melees in general are far from good mages.

There are hybrid guilds like conjurers which could easily pull off the things you mentioned, however for most other guilds with negatives to arts they would either have to train meditation and arts or use wands. Wands only have around 20 charges and that's after getting an enchanter to charge it for you.

And the idea of using rods is flat out ridiculous for melee guilds. For what reason did you give them negatives to magic arts if you're just going to force them to use magic anyway?

Now the last option is to just dodge every single monster with death ray.

In the older times, unless you went in RDs, you only had to worry about DR in raze LQ, AD, DL and that covers just about all of the DR monsters you would encounter.

Times have now changed and DR mobs have became increasingly common in training spots. I won't say it's impossible to train while avoiding DR, however it is becoming increasingly tedious to do so. Worse yet, it's not our problem. It's only that there isn't any way to escape the game over button anymore.

So now we must ask the question, what makes death ray any worse than other methods of forcing teamwork/tactics onto people?

The first point, we have already mentioned before is that death ray is no longer restrained to high end monsters, even low level monsters have death ray now.

Next, it is incredibly unbalanced. I don't know if it will change in the future but currently this hardly changes anything for mages and archers except that they have to be more careful. While for melees they have to abandon their main job and allow a mage or archer to take care of them unless they are in the mood to gamble their lives away.

Once again, this is not a problem of melees being incapable, it's a fundamental issue with melees. All this change does is mainly force melees to have a significant amount of risk fighting monsters with DR while changing nothing for mages and archers.

While it's true that mages and archers have problems as well for brute forcing everything, it's not something life threatening like DR and more commonly just the having to deal with resistant monsters (only for mages, and namely diamond golems that can be acid darted) which melees share as well.

In general I just feel that while the idea of creating challenging monsters that cannot be killed through brute force alone is a good idea, the current method of doing so isn't very good. It allows melees in particular to carry heavy risk of dying in a game where death is hardly a joke while archers and mages do not need the same tactics because they can kill just about every other monster from a distance. (yes, even diamond golems!)

Last edited by Omega : 03-16-2011 at 11:33 AM.
  #35  
Old 03-16-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
In general I just feel that while the idea of creating challenging monsters that cannot be killed through brute force alone is a good idea, the current method of doing so isn't very good. It allows melees in particular to carry heavy risk of dying in a game where death is hardly a joke while archers and mages do not need the same tactics because they can kill just about every other monster from a distance. (yes, even diamond golems!)
The numbers prove you wrong. The archer/mage death rate is twice/three times that of meleers.
  #36  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:15 PM
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The numbers prove you wrong. The archer/mage death rate is twice/three times that of meleers.
... Did you actually read the thing or just skipped to the last part and typed that? I will kindly set aside the question of where the numbers came from and whether or not they accounted for the ratio of melees to mages to archers and whatnot to point out that I'm not here to argue that "mages and archers die less!".

I'm here to say that normal methods of dying is fair (although can be a little too powerful at times if unbalanced) but throwing our lives away on a game of Russian roulette is stupid. Not to mention this does not affect mages or archers as much as it does to melees. Since mages and archers can dodge, but melees must fight at point blank. If you're going to force tactics on people then force it for all classes, not just melees.

Come back again after reading it.
  #37  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
... Did you actually read the thing or just skipped to the last part and typed that? I will kindly set aside the question of where the numbers came from and whether or not they accounted for the ratio of melees to mages to archers and whatnot to point out that I'm not here to argue that "mages and archers die less!".

I'm here to say that normal methods of dying is fair (although can be a little too powerful at times if unbalanced) but throwing our lives away on a game of Russian roulette is stupid. Not to mention this does not affect mages or archers as much as it does to melees. Since mages and archers can dodge, but melees must fight at point blank. If you're going to force tactics on people then force it for all classes, not just melees.

Come back again after reading it.
I read it, Arilou had already addressed the rest of it. It would have been redundant for me to repeat what he said. Death ray isn't changing and Arilou explained why.

It is supposed to be russian roulette with you dying sometimes according to Rhialtos vision of balance. You might want to go read that again. It is here on the forum. Trayr has linked to it many times for players.
You are always supposed to have a chance of dying , even to a goblin. So that you have a chance of dying to a few monsters that have one spell in the game is far below the ultimate balance plan. I'd venture to say there will be more spells like it in the future.

*starts to say As Arilou said and gives up* Go read it
  #38  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:50 PM
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I have just two questions.

1. Goblins are supposed to be "dangerous" at any level? Why? That is what higher level monsters are for. What is the payoff for a HoF who has to watch his/her back simply walking through Amita? I believe in the way Wyvern works, but that seems a little extreme.

2. If there is to be more D-Ray style things added, what will the counterweight be? Adding more spells as devastating as D-Ray will drastically increase the amount of death, and as a result make things entirely more difficult to play. Wyvern is already the most difficult game I play today. I can't imagine somebody would legitimately want to make it more difficult without increasing the reward for playing...
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  #39  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:52 PM
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/wall of text/
I am not here to argue whether death ray is too deadly or not deadly enough. I can see that the game is transforming into a game which actually encourages grouping and team play.

We have seen the new group healing spell, the increasing need for resists in the game and the lack of healing in combat. One can no longer take a giant, put two mine race ring and dive into an RD for a few hours and make millions of xp and gold. This surely encourages group play, which is fine in all aspects. Groups seem however everything but supported by the game itself. The absence of a basic hp/mp indicators to begin with is discouraging. You are fighting some large monster with someone and his hp is down. You are in charge of healing the person but you only have two options. Either heal him/her constantly or wait for them to send you a tell.
None of these ways are really optimal. Sure, you can heal all the time and waste a lot of mana because they are at the full hp, which you have no way of knowing! and thus cannot help in the fight.
Or you can go about your fight and wait for the person to ask for a heal. It takes time to heal, which is not an issue really, the problem is the chat filter with this and the fact that the melee needs to watch the hp bar constantly and type while killing the monster.
Chat filter is a problem since it won't allow you to just type tell <bah> hp (or even alias it to a button). Watching the hp bar takes the player experience away. Who wants to watch their hp bar instead of watching what is going on on the screen.

Why can't we get hp indicators like every other MMO. We don't even need the exact values, some estimate of the player. Surely in the RP perspective you can see that he is limping, bleeding a little, bleeding badly, can't even move anymore etc. I understand that the game has no way of doing that at the moment but what is the point of forcing player grouping without this basic information available? Are we expected to use external applications to do this ourselves? Is there any word if/when this will be supported?


So, how does this fit into the DR discussion you ask?
Well, an easy way of preventing DR as suggested was grouping up with mages or archers to kill them. Well, this is nice and everything but if the grouping works the way it does... Bringing the mage to kill DR mobs and help out is not exactly the best player experience. If I am in a group I want to know what is going on, I want be active, not just solo with someone else soloing next to me.
DR sure kills a lot of people but I think more low level mages kill themselves with their own spells than people die to DR... because well, there are not many advantages in grouping and high level players know that they can't be fighting DR.
Give us core grouping functionality and then DR will not be a big issue. You can't kill the dragon on your own? Well, why don't you get a friend to help out?

/tl;dr version/

Give us a grouping functionality like hp/mp bars and we will gladly go group up to kill the large nasty DR beast when we bump into it. Current grouping system is based on everyone soloing while others solo in the same map. Let us play TOGETHER.
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  #40  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kiez View Post
I have just two questions.

1. Goblins are supposed to be "dangerous" at any level? Why? That is what higher level monsters are for. What is the payoff for a HoF who has to watch his/her back simply walking through Amita? I believe in the way Wyvern works, but that seems a little extreme.

2. If there is to be more D-Ray style things added, what will the counterweight be? Adding more spells as devastating as D-Ray will drastically increase the amount of death, and as a result make things entirely more difficult to play. Wyvern is already the most difficult game I play today. I can't imagine somebody would legitimately want to make it more difficult without increasing the reward for playing...
Those are Rhialto's words Kiez, I'd recommend you read what he said about it in his notes on balance on the forum.

It's one spell, the addition of other spells would be in monsters that are difficult to get to, take real thinking to handle etc. That is the goal of the higher level areas/monsters. You arent going to just grind them etc. That's what I meant. That you need to think outside the box does not necessarily equate to more difficult as they can easily be avoided by training somewhere else, etc.
The reward for playing is finding a way to beat that monster. Same as it's always been.
 


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