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  #1  
Old 03-25-2010, 11:40 PM
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Default Rangers Guild - Serious Discussion only

Currently Ranger stats:

http://www.cabochon.com/player/guilds#rangers

Things to keep in mind that are to stay the same.

1. Whipsman side/Melee Side and Conjurer side/Summoner Mage side

2: Bonuses on one side shouldnt be the same on the other

What changes need to be made to Conjurers side to make it viable?
If those changes are made, what changes would be needed on whipsman side to keep the above true?

GO!
  #2  
Old 03-26-2010, 03:27 AM
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Number ONE:

First of all, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but the enchantment penalty on the conjurers needs to be removed or at the very least reduced to 5. Especially considering that they're intended to be more magic-sided characters, they should have a bit easier time using mana-shield, and enchanting their whips.

To counter that, on the whipsman side, since mana isn't intended as a main component for them, they should get a small bonus to the healing skill, like +1 at ever odd level for a total of 5. And seeing as their HP bonus is par to axemens, and the fact that recoil is so very very harsh with magic whip(at least with my experience), it shouldn't cause any overpowering issues, not to mention it should counter-balance the meditation conjurers already get.


Number TWO:

Just for petty 'fair'ness issues, i think whipsman should get -10 to all other weapon types, just the same as conjurers, seeing as if your Dumb enough to join whipsmans with a club you deserve the penalty.


Number THREE:

Since it is a 'conjurers' branch of a guild, it would be sensible to see a bit a bonus in conjuration for them, maybe +1 at levels 5 and 10, although I think the summoning spells should be divided up, so that the lower lore spells have a weaker monster cap, and then to summon the big stuff you need a higher lore version of the spell, to help balance the SP cost of summoning.

As for the other side of the guild, I'd like to say give them +2 whips on every even guild level for a total of 15, since they're supposed to be up close and physical. Personally, I think that may be a bit too much, but I honestly can't think of anything else to give them that wouldn't overpower them.



And on an opinion note, not a suggestion, i think that conjurers should have more than just the enchantment penalty reduced. While I understand they aren't meant to be mages, I percieve them to have a basic knowledge of magic in general and not to be as dunder-headed as cavemen, but thats just me.
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  #3  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:16 AM
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I've always thought there should be a difference in the amount of whips each section gives. One is based on melee, while the other is based on magic, it doesn't make sense they each give the same bonus to whips. Conjurers is much more enticing than Whipsman because of this reason; you get more bonuses, with much less negatives. A bonus to whips on the whipsman section sounds like a bit much though, so conjurers could be taken down to 5, but then have the enchantment negative lowered, or removed. That will allow them to cast blade spells and mana shield much easier, and in my opinion, balance out losing 5 whips.

Whipsman should receive either an increase in the amount of hp they get per guild level (to 6 or 7%) or 5 healing skill, or 5 strength. I say this because Paladins receive more hp per level while being able to cast spells and heal themselves, and Cavemen have around the same amount of negatives yet have double the hp bonus. They're very unappealing for that reason, they have less bonuses than any other melee guild, while having more negatives. I feel like they aren't even on par with anyone, and the only reason people make them is for the image.

There could be separate guild shops for each section of the guild, each giving different armors and weapons than the current ones. These could be the same armors, yet tweaked, recolored, or renamed for each section. Whipsman could receive armors that give more AC and weapons that have elemental damages greater than conjurers(since they'd have to scroll blade spells onto their whips instead of casting it). While conjurers could receive weapons and armors that increase conjuration/death etc.(resists still?), to help them along with summoning. Summoning would have to be tweaked yet again to keep them as summoners though, since summons right now are pretty.. bad and useless. +2 conjuration to conjurers? Better summoning spells for them? As in better monsters, having them charmed from when you summon them, or being able to choose what monster you summon from which spell.

The selection of whips, well, good whips, is very limited. Magic whip and platinum whip are the only viable and useful whips in my opinion. The guild whips seem to be lacking completely behind these two, which makes sense, but I personally don't like. For whipsman they're your only way to get different elemental damage types unless you go and waste money constantly on blade scrolls. That's on top of wasting money on pots for things conjurers can go without. Gem whips? I'm sure that'd make more than just me happy.

Seeing as how neither section can wear cloaks, maybe they should both receive 10 dodge like other guilds that can't wear a certain armor. Or guild cloaks could be made that don't 'restrict' your movement and give bonuses to certain things. Maybe even resists or special features to replace some cloaks you can't wear.

In my opinion whipsman should outdamage conjurers without question, while conjurers should still do decent damage, but be able to self resist themselves(if they train that way), cast blade spells and mana shield, and be able to summon efficiently. That would differentiate between the two, yet still make them functional, and show people they exist since they pretty much don't anymore.

Overall, I think the guild needs a complete overhaul, yet is incredibly hard to find a balance between the two without making them overbalanced or underbalanced. One side will always seem to have an advantage over the other, or over everyone else.


-I'll post anything else I can think of eventually..
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  #4  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:02 AM
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I don't think the Conjurers guild is underpowered, they just aren't very attractive.

Exile and I talked about how conjurer only summons could make the guild more attractive. Conjurers are Wyvern's summoning class, yet they get no special summons. People don't get a negative bonus to elemental skills when joining the guild, so why not use this for these conjurer only summons.
Consider a summon for every element, that gets slightly stronger if you get more skill in the element or rise in guild level. There don't have to be different summons if you get more skill, just the same creature that is stronger would do.
For instance, if a player had some earth skill trained and he casted the <insert cool name for an earth summon spell> spell, he would summon a golem that could take some melee hits.
A fire summon could have fire recoil and resistance, and would be able to melt the Frozen North.
These summons would be obtained in a conjurer only spellbook store.

Not being able to really take control of a summon isn't helping either. The conjurer only summons would be easy to charm, so players don't have to waste all their time trying to get the summon to where they want it.
Summons could also have a different AI than the normal monsters in the game. They could be made so that they don't move more than 10 squares away from the person that summoned them, unless they are busy fighting/doing funky summon dances.
  #5  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:40 AM
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Thanks , some of this is new and some of this is things that Wizards are already discussing. So keep going.
  #6  
Old 03-26-2010, 04:14 PM
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(Wall of text; summary at the bottom)

To be honest, rangers guild seems pretty well thought out and holds as it is on its own in my opinion. Yes, I have played a ranger before all the major changes, but for the most part I believe that the build I had is unaffected by the changes. I will therefore give an opinion of a whipper:

1) Lack of whips. Pretty much at this time, all you have is a magic whip. Craftable whips would allow people to diverse the builds a bit rather than to play as the guild dictates them (training weapon skills and on top of that death skill) This does not sound like a big problem, but for the 3skill/level people, it is a lot

2) Conjurer penalties and bonuses - at the moment the penalties are quite too harsh to be honest compared with being a whipper in mages guild. The damage in mages is obviously way lower but you will survive more as well as throw in the occasional fireball at the nasty shog. Throwing in 2 or 3 meditation might help, or reducing the penalties to maybe -7 or something as many rnagers that I talked to vere outtraining the negatives, maybe reduce some of the air bonus to compensate for this.

3) Whipsmen penalties and bonuses - Well, it is difficult not to compare this side of rangers to cavers. If you do and compare, there is no way that this guild will have the upper hand. the negatives are amazingly high (limited armor slots and material, no crafted weapons) the guild minuses are nearly as severe as the cavers. Since this is the grab a whip and go kill a dragon side of the guild, the air and death bonuses are not needed (assuming point #1 gets resolved), instead of those, more hp, say 70% and some indirect combat boost, such as find weakness would be nice

4) The wow factor - This was always a big part of wyvern. Players joining guilds where a dominant player is. How many people made a giant caveman because they wanted to be like Betty? human paladin because they wanted to be like <insert random human paladin> etc. There is currently no active high level ranger to look up to, to secretly compete with. Krayzee made this player for a brief moment and there were at least 3 hofer rangers.
This is obviously something wizards cannot influence directly, it just has to happen. Only mentioned it as a fun fact.

5) Player Guide description - In the first part of the description saying who rangers are and where to find the guild, there is also mention of the negatives what they cannot wear. Every other guild with equipment restrictions mentions it at the end. This might or might not make a difference when looking at the guilds

6) Quest Requirement - In the past I have heared that the guild quest is too difficult. I don't remember the quest exactly from the top of my head, but it might be something worth looking at. Note: this mostly happened before the randomisation of the guild quests so it might not be valid anymore


Summary:
Most of the problems that rangers have has a root in the weapon choices. Most 3skillpoint races will be discouraged to have to train death magic ontop of all their other skills in order to improve their weapon. The absence of a lead ranger to show the others how it is done might be a part of the problem as well. Players are not liekly to join dead guilds with no players in them to talk about strategy. I remember quite indepth discussions in axer/caver guild and to a point even in the ranger guild when there were a couple of hofer rangers playing.

Final remarks:
On its own I like the tone of the guild. I find it one of the best made guilds in the game. The problem with this guild is when it is compared to other guilds, where the other guilds usually hold the upper hand.
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  #7  
Old 03-31-2010, 06:07 AM
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We made the first, very basic, changes to Rangers last night.
All the -10s were changed to -5 and whips on conjurers side were changed to +5 instead of +10 as they are the mage side and have summons which were recently updated.

Play with that a bit and give us some more ideas and feed back.
  #8  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teshuvah View Post
We made the first, very basic, changes to Rangers last night.
All the -10s were changed to -5 and whips on conjurers side were changed to -5 instead of -10 as they are the mage side and have summons which were recently updated.

Play with that a bit and give us some more ideas and feed back.


You mean +5 instead of +10 right?
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  #9  
Old 03-31-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clubbz View Post
You mean +5 instead of +10 right?
to whips yes, sorry the +10 was change to +5 on the conjurers side.
  #10  
Old 04-01-2010, 03:12 PM
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Increase the durability of guild whips. Right now they are incredibly short lived.

This might make them worthwhile enough to enchant.
  #11  
Old 04-01-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergy View Post
Increase the durability of guild whips. Right now they are incredibly short lived.

This might make them worthwhile enough to enchant.
I will look into that. But you're funny. Enchanting them increases their durability a great deal LOL
  #12  
Old 04-03-2010, 05:13 PM
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Ok, so today the Axeman's guild was tweaked. Where they're at now makes them a good benchmark for the whippers half of Rangers guild in my opinion. They have the same health bonus as whippers, and now the same amount of weapon bonus. They also have essentially the same minus' except for air/death magic which Whippers receive none in. Also, Axers have no armor restriction which Rangers do. This is a big thing (especially with the change to fear/bravery, lion cloaks are major pieces for many people).

From here, you see that Axeman get 5 healing, strength, and fw. However, Whippers get what? +5 death/air. This seems a bit lackluster to me. There isn't much room for a whipper to use magic, for that they'd be a conjurer. So, it can be inferred that the purpose of this is for magic whip. This leads to the point already made multiple times and an obvious gap: lack of weapon variety. Plat whip, which you need to first reach a high level to even use; Magic whip, the classic standby; Guild whips? Uhh...no. People above have already made the case for upgrading/creating new whips, so I'll leave it at that.

It seems to me a good way to bring whippers up to par would be to *at least* give them the odd/even level healing bonus like axemen.

Also, if you think about it, it probably takes more skill and thinking and practice to say use a whip than a sword or club or axe. You don't have a straight shot where you know that your club, sword or axe is gonna hit where you point it. You also don't have to worry as much about depth perception (or whatever is like it) with traditional weapons, where as with a whip it would take a skilled eye to figure out when/how far away they need to be to strike etc. This leads me as a possible backing for allowing whippers to have no minus in perhaps mind/spirit as those seem like things that could come along with whips. Patience, timing, thinking, practice. Those seem like things that could go with mind/spirit skill. They don't have to necessarilly have a bonus, but at least not lose skills in those?

I don't think I'm conveying everything that I'm thinking the way I want but I think these seem like decent ideas for potential changes. If more comes to me, I'll come back and add.
  #13  
Old 04-03-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellandra View Post
Ok, so today the Axeman's guild was tweaked. Where they're at now makes them a good benchmark for the whippers half of Rangers guild in my opinion. They have the same health bonus as whippers, and now the same amount of weapon bonus. They also have essentially the same minus' except for air/death magic which Whippers receive none in. Also, Axers have no armor restriction which Rangers do. This is a big thing (especially with the change to fear/bravery, lion cloaks are major pieces for many people).

From here, you see that Axeman get 5 healing, strength, and fw. However, Whippers get what? +5 death/air. This seems a bit lackluster to me. There isn't much room for a whipper to use magic, for that they'd be a conjurer. So, it can be inferred that the purpose of this is for magic whip. This leads to the point already made multiple times and an obvious gap: lack of weapon variety. Plat whip, which you need to first reach a high level to even use; Magic whip, the classic standby; Guild whips? Uhh...no. People above have already made the case for upgrading/creating new whips, so I'll leave it at that.

It seems to me a good way to bring whippers up to par would be to *at least* give them the odd/even level healing bonus like axemen.

Also, if you think about it, it probably takes more skill and thinking and practice to say use a whip than a sword or club or axe. You don't have a straight shot where you know that your club, sword or axe is gonna hit where you point it. You also don't have to worry as much about depth perception (or whatever is like it) with traditional weapons, where as with a whip it would take a skilled eye to figure out when/how far away they need to be to strike etc. This leads me as a possible backing for allowing whippers to have no minus in perhaps mind/spirit as those seem like things that could come along with whips. Patience, timing, thinking, practice. Those seem like things that could go with mind/spirit skill. They don't have to necessarilly have a bonus, but at least not lose skills in those?

I don't think I'm conveying everything that I'm thinking the way I want but I think these seem like decent ideas for potential changes. If more comes to me, I'll come back and add.
When you figure out what you want to suggest (after you play a while, too, as right now your ideas are moot because you have not played with any of the changes in the past year) please post again.
Whipper sides are meleers and arent getting more mage skills, they can use mana shield pots so they dont need mind/spirit. Keep that in mind. The rest of it is rambling, so clarify once you play for a while. Whipper side gets +10 whips not 5. You may want to go read the changes that we just did to rangers.
  #14  
Old 04-04-2010, 10:09 PM
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Right now the main thing they need is fear immunity. Most guilds use cloak of the lion because they need the amulet for death protection or water breathing etc. Rangers can't use cloaks so somehow they need either to use cloaks for cloak of the lion or add some new gear that has fear immunity on it. Before the changes it was only necessary for a conjurer to cast bravery or whipsman to use potions of bravery now they need extra to stay immune.

I always thought whipsman (The melee type ranger) should have a dodge bonus too. conjurers have a lot better set up I think. Perhaps +5 healing too..
  #15  
Old 04-05-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durango View Post
Right now the main thing they need is fear immunity. Most guilds use cloak of the lion because they need the amulet for death protection or water breathing etc. Rangers can't use cloaks so somehow they need either to use cloaks for cloak of the lion or add some new gear that has fear immunity on it. Before the changes it was only necessary for a conjurer to cast bravery or whipsman to use potions of bravery now they need extra to stay immune.

I always thought whipsman (The melee type ranger) should have a dodge bonus too. conjurers have a lot better set up I think. Perhaps +5 healing too..
You can use a hero ammy so that takes care of the fear issues for you if you need it. Just dont train where you need death pro constantly.

Lots of guilds dont allow wearing cloak of the lion, or cant wield shield of skull, so there are alot of possibilites.

Thanks for the input on the other things.
  #16  
Old 04-12-2010, 09:28 PM
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Guild whips are underwhelming :/
  #17  
Old 04-12-2010, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellandra View Post
Guild whips are underwhelming :/
They were recently boosted as well, so they are less underwhelming then they were
  #18  
Old 04-14-2010, 10:37 AM
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The point could be made that the guild always directs you towards using magic whip
  #19  
Old 04-14-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
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The point could be made that the guild always directs you towards using magic whip
That's true. But all store-bought whips were just improved as well by a significant amt as well, so there are options.
  #20  
Old 04-15-2010, 01:00 AM
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Well, what I was more referring to is...

Why should the whipsman half of rangers get any bonus to air/death? As it says above, conjurers-magic and whipsman-melee. I think the death/air bonus for whipsman condradicts the proposed focus of the guild. I think a more solidified version of what I was trying to say in that long post above was: Ex. Axeman's, a comparable guild to the whipsman half of rangers, gets a bonus to basically every skill a meleer has at it's core (fw, healing skill, strength, AND even a secondary offensive type). However, the whipsman get...bonus to a magical element...

It seems to me that you could further differentiate between guilds by only giving the conjurers the death/air bonus and they would focus on magic whip as their weapon. Then, give whippers a bonus to more melee related skills (like what axeman's get). Whippers could be the ones who would take more advantage of the guild whips, normal whips, blade spell scrolls etc. This keeps each half in their respective specialty.

Also, I used a magic whip with only the death bonus that I had from the guild when my whip of many thongs broke. I found that the magic whip, with only the 2 or 3 death bonus, was way more effective against anything that didn't have the high magic resist...It was kind of discouraging Lol...I don't know if this means magic whip is OP or something *shrug*
 


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